All-Time Black Team, A & B

[Appling]

........................A Team...........B team


Catcher............ J Gibson........... R. Campanella

1st base............M. Suttles.........F. Thomas

2nd base............J. Robinson........J. Morgan

3rd base.............J. Wilson..........J. Beckwith

SS.....................A. Rodriguez.....D. Moore

Left....................B. Bonds..........O. Charleston (Weak arm)

Center................T. Stearnes......W. Mays

Right..................C. Torrente.......H. Aaron

RHP....................B. Rogan...........S. Paige

LHP....................B. Foster...........N. Winters

Utility.................M. Dihigo............L. Salazar

Pinch hit'r............C. Smith............M. Ramerez

Pinch run'r............C.P. Bell...........R. Henderson

I would rank most of your "B Team" ahead of the A team -- perhaps because I know only about their MLB performance. Hard to imagine any Negro Leagues player I would put ahead of: Frank Thomas; Joe Morgan; Willie Mays; or Hank Aaron.

[BillOK]

A & B all-time teams

........................A Team...........B team


Catcher............ J Gibson........... R. Campanella

1st base............M. Suttles.........F. Thomas

2nd base............J. Robinson........J. Morgan

3rd base.............J. Wilson..........J. Beckwith

SS.....................A. Rodriguez.....D. Moore

Left....................B. Bonds..........O. Charleston (Weak arm)

Center................T. Stearnes......W. Mays

Right..................C. Torrente.......H. Aaron

RHP....................B. Rogan...........S. Paige

LHP....................B. Foster...........N. Winters

Utility.................M. Dihigo............L. Salazar

Pinch hit'r............C. Smith............M. Ramerez

Pinch run'r............C.P. Bell...........R. Henderson

[baseballPAP]

Disappointing to see so many MLB players on these lists, and Willie McCovey taking a backseat to guys he clearly beats out, like Banks and Murray.

Anyway, my all-time, "anyone who's race would have kept them out of MLB in the 30's" team:

C-Josh Gibson/Roy Campanella
1B-Willie McCovey/Mule Suttles
2B-Joe Morgan/Rod Carew
3B-John Beckwith/Jud Wilson
SS-Pop Llyod/Barry Larkin
LF-Barry Bonds/Rickey Henderson
CF-Willie Mays/Oscar Charleston
RF-Hank Aaron/Frank Robinson
UT-Martin DiHigo/Dick Allen
SP-Pedro Martinez,Satchel Paige,Smokey Joe Williams,Bob Gibson/Juan Marichal,Fergie Jenkins,Hilton Smith,Willie Foster
RP-Mariano Rivera,Lee Smith/Joe Rogan,Rube Foster

Mostly MLB guys, true. BUT, the lack of concrete stats keeps me from rating NeLers overly high on my lists. If I had something more than a few numbers and a bunch of legends, some of these guys would be higher, and might very well knock some others off:Buck Leonard, Frank Grant, Cristobal Torreinte, Ray Dandridge, Cannonball Redding and several more. Also of note, if I had stuck to my own rules strictly, I'd have included Japanese players as well, and would have had Oh, Kaneda and Nagashima here for sure.

[Paul Wendt]

The forum name is "The Negro Leagues" and the racial/ethnic identity matters are inevitably intermingled with the meaning of that term.

Another consideration is that research and evaluation of play in the Negro Leagues, and writing about the Negro Leagues, is a special field. Some people feel at home (versed if not well-versed) listing the top outfielders of those leagues but lost comparing Cool Papa Bell with Willie Wilson, Tim Raines, or Devon White.

[Bill Burgess]

After 1.5 yrs. in mothballs, I'm pleased to see this thread get some play.

[metrotheme]

I borrowed the format from another poster to save myself time and I added a few changes.

C--Josh Gibson, Roy Campanella
1B--Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
2B--Martin Dihigo, Joe Morgan
3B--Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson
SS--Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
OF--Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson, Cool Papa Bell, Barry Bonds
Starting pitcher--Satchel Paige, Smoky Joe Williams, Bob Gibson, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown
closer--Hilton Smith, Lee Smith
bullpen--Willie Foster, Leon Day, Doc Gooden, Vida Blue
manager--Buck O'Neil, Rube Foster

[stejay]

C Josh Gibson
1B Ernie Banks
2B Rod Carew
3B Ray Dandridge
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Hank Aaron
LF Barry Bonds
OF Kirby Puckett
P Pedro Martinez
P Satchel paige
RP Mariano Rivera

B Team

C Biz Mackey
1B Eddie Murray
2B Jackie Robinson
3B Judy Johnson
SS Willie Wells
RF Reggie Jackson
LF Rickey Henderson
OF Ken Griffey jr
P Dwight Gooden
P Bill Foster
RP Smokey Joe Williams

[Bill Burgess]

Yea man, I hear you. I mean there are many Latinos of African descent who deny their African identity and blackness; it's a free world, so if a dark-skinned man says he's indio and not black, that's his prerogative. I guess my problem is just with people saying "Latinos can't be black because of their Latinoness." It is offensive to implicitly impose one's rigid American conception of race on others (for example, historically on most government forms one had to decide between checking the black box or the Hispanic box for race/ethnicity, as though they are distinct groupings). Furthermore, it negates Afro-Latino/a identity, and it precludes the possibility of the contributions of people of African descent to be recognized in the Hispanophone Caribbean and Latin America. Just looking at the history of Caribbean players in the US, it's just so clear black-latino divide isn't the reality - from the NY Cubans to Sammy Sosa saying "I'm a black man."

When I started this thread, I thought it might honor the black ballplayer. All of them. I was startled when some members felt it necessary to exclude the international black ballplayers. Even ridiculous to adopt such an exclusionary approach. But what could I do? Order them to include them?

I remember when I was a kid, and the politicians passed laws against discrimination, presumably to protect blacks and minorities from racism/segregation. However, even the best-intentioned laws can have unintended side-effects.

The Harlem-based Arthur Mitchell Ballet Company had to go out and recruit white/Asian ballet dancers. How awkward, since the company was founded to show that blacks can dance ballet. A Harlem-based tap dance group had to do the same thing. Silly, isn't it? Political correctness can often bite one in the butt.

[Andominus]

<starting pitcher – Vida Blue

bullpen - Smokey Joe Williams>

Sure you don't wanna reverse these?
How 'bout replacing Vida with Tiant, or add LSmith in short relief?

To be honest, I'm not that high on Vida; I just wanted to get a lefty starter in. Why I valued that over say short relief or other things I don't know lol. But yea these guys are studs, I guess lefty-righty stuff doesn't matter. I'd agree with switchin tiant and vida...but no lee smith lol

I do not differentiate between Afro-Americans and internationally-born blacks. But I do not impose my values on others. All are free to compose their teams as they see fit. My absence of moral judgment is deliberate.

Yea man, I hear you. I mean there are many Latinos of African descent who deny their African identity and blackness; it's a free world, so if a dark-skinned man says he's indio and not black, that's his prerogative. I guess my problem is just with people saying "Latinos can't be black because of their Latinoness." It is offensive to implicitly impose one's rigid American conception of race on others (for example, historically on most government forms one had to decide between checking the black box or the Hispanic box for race/ethnicity, as though they are distinct groupings). Furthermore, it negates Afro-Latino/a identity, and it precludes the possibility of the contributions of people of African descent to be recognized in the Hispanophone Caribbean and Latin America. Just looking at the history of Caribbean players in the US, it's just so clear black-latino divide isn't the reality - from the NY Cubans to Sammy Sosa saying "I'm a black man."

anyway just my thoughts but this is a baseball thread so ill leave it at that lol

[Bill Burgess]

I do not differentiate between Afro-Americans and internationally-born blacks. But I do not impose my values on others. All are free to compose their teams as they see fit. My absence of moral judgment is deliberate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Form Chart:

C - Roy Campanella, Elston Howard. Negro Leagues: Josh Gibson, James "Biz" Mackay, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, "Double Duty" Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin, Quincy Trouppe.

1B - Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Tony Perez, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor

2B - Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

SS - Ernie Banks; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells,

3B - Bill Madlock; Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

LF - Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Billy Williams, Willie Stargell. Negro Leagues: Mule Suttles

CF - Willie Mays, Ken Griffey, Jr., Andruw Jones, Torri Hunter, Vada Pinson; Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Martin Dihigo

RF - Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Dave Winfield, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Sammie Sosa, Daryl Strawberry; Negro Leagues: Monte Irvin, Turkey Stearnes,

Pitchers:

1930-1960: Don Newcombe

1960-1980: Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, Luis Tiant, Bob Veale, Al Downing,

1980-Present: Pedro Martinez, Dave Stewart, Mariano Rivera

Negro Leagues:
Robert Leroy "Satchel" Paige, 1926-1967
"Smokey Joe" Williams, 1905-1932
Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, 1917-38
"Cannonball" Dick Redding, 1911-38
Dave Brown, 1918-1925
Andrew "Rube" Foster, 1902-1926
Bill Foster, 1923-38
Jose Mendez, 1908-1926
Martin Dihigo, 1923-45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some background Reference Resources:

It might serve a purpose to see how many former members of the Negro Leagues have presently been enshrined.

1971 - Satchel Paige --------- Negro L. committee
1972 - Josh Gibson --------- Negro L. committe
1972 - Buck Leonard --------- Negro L. committee
1973 - Monte Irvin ---------- Negro L. committee
1974 - "Cool Papa" Bell -------- Negro L. committee
1975 - Judy Johnson -------- Negro L. committee
1976 - Oscar Charleston ------ Negro L. committee
1977 - Martin Dihigo -------- Negro L. committee
1977 - "Pop" Lloyd -------- Negro L. committee

1981 - Rube Foster - ---------Veterans committee
1987 - Ray Dandridge ---------- Veterans committee
1995 - Leon Day ----------- Veterans committee
1996 - Willie Foster ----------- Veterans committee
1997 - Willie Wells ------------ Veterans committee
1998 - Bullet Joe Rogan --------- Veterans committee
1999 - Smokey Joe Williams ------ Veterans committee
2000 - Turkey Stearns ----------- Veterans committee
2001 - Hilton Smith - -------------Veterans committee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. In 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier polled 31 Negro league players, writers, officials and managers and they
selected the following team:

A Team------------------------B Team

1B - Buck Leonard-----------1B - Ben Taylor
2B - Jackie Robinson---------2B - Bingo DeMoss
SS - John Henry Lloyd-------SS - Willie Wells
3B - Oliver Marcell-----------3B - Judy Johnson
LF - Monte Irvin-------------LF - Pete Hall
CF - Oscar Charleston-------CF - Cool Papa Bell
RF - Christobal Torriente----RF - Chino Smith
C - Josh Gibson / Biz Mackey-C - Campanella / Bruce Petway
P - Smokey Joe Williams------P - Dave Brown
P - Satchel Paige------------P - Cannonball Dick Redding
P - Bullet Joe Rogan---------P - Nip Winters
P - John Donaldson ----------P - Dizzy Dismukes
P - Willie Foster-------------P - Don Newcombe
Utility OF - Martin Dihigo---Utility 1B - John Beckwith
Utility IF - Martin Dihigo----Utility 1B - Newt Allen
Utility IF - Sam Banheart---Utility - Clint Thomas
Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes--coaches - C. I. Taylor
Coaches - Danny McClelland--coaches - Dave Malarcher
Manager = Rube Foster-------Manager - Cum Posey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled its fans in 1952. Their readers listed the following players into 5 teams:

First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.

Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.

Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.

Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.

Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.

Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.

*Some players that weren't listed but could have been: (1B) Buck O'Neil, Red Moore, Steel Arm Davis, George Giles; (2B) Bonnie Serrell; (SS) Jake Stephens; (3B) Alec Radcliffe, Bobby Robinson; (OF) Jumbo Kimbro, Willard Brown, Bill Wright, Neil Robinson, Ducky Davenport; (C) Quincy Trouppe, Larry Brown, Buck Ewing, Pops Coleman; (P) Chet Brewer, Hilton Smith, Barney Brown, Ted Trent, Max Manning, Sug Cornelius, Harry Salmon, Barney Morris; (Mgr) Buck O'Neil, Double Duty Radcliffe, Quincy Trouppe.

[RuthMayBond]

As one who loves sports and has extensively studied critical race theory, let me say that I am happy to see this thread and discussion, albeit a couple of years late lol.

bench – Joe Morgan
bench - Roy Campanella
bench - Cristobal Torriente
bench – Roberto Clemente
bench - Frank Robinson
bench - Rickey Henderson
bench – Hank Aaron
bench – Ernie Banks

That is one CRAZY bench :bowdown::bowdown:

<starting pitcher – Vida Blue

bullpen - Smokey Joe Williams>

Sure you don't wanna reverse these?
How 'bout replacing Vida with Tiant, or add LSmith in short relief?

[Andominus]

Afro-Latinos are BLACK!

As one who loves sports and has extensively studied critical race theory, let me say that I am happy to see this thread and discussion, albeit a couple of years late lol. I have seen a couple of really troubling quotes, so before I list my team I'll share my two cents.

Bill,

Here's my All-Time Black team, but I am not including hispanics. The term "black" is meant to refer to African-Americans, not dark-skinned hispanics, so I will not include players such as Pedro Martinez and Christobel Torriente. Here is my team:

So according to you, someone from Ghana or Kenya is not black because they are not African-American?! I was born in Harlem but my fam comes from Eritrea (in east Africa). Are you going to argue that my family is not black? Back in the day the term black almost exclusively referred to African-Americans because almost all black Americans in this country were the descendants of American slaves. But America's black population is more diverse now, with black people from all over the world. Today to say that black only refers to African-Americans is ludicrous and obviously Ameri-centric, since only roughly 40 million of the 1.5 billion black people in the world are from the United States.
Also, hispanic isn't really used anymore; it's even considered offensive by many Latinos, especially those from the Caribbean, but that's a debate for another forum.

Guys, I've seen Pedro Martinez, Cristobal Torriente, Juan Marichal, and Jose Mesa mentioned. They're HISPANIC it's ignorant to say that they're black for whatever reason.

Another incorrect and ignorant comment. Think about the history of Cuban baseball players in America. The New York Cubans of the Negro League were a star-studded team whose roster was comprised almost exclusively of Afro-Latinos! Why couldn't these Caribbean ball players play in the "Majors"?...because they were black. On the other hand, some Cuban players (white ones of Spanish descent) like Gilberto Torres and Santiago Ulrich played for the Washington Senators two years before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. These Washington Senator players from Cuba weren't considered to have broken the color barrier because no color barrier had been broken. They were white. Latino isn't a race; it's an "ethnicity" of many races. In the Caribbean, where most Latino ballplayers come from, the majority of people are of African descent. While you may want to dispute it, there isn't really anything to argue. Go to the DR or Cuba and see for yourself. More African slaves were shipped to Latin America than to the United States. It is possible to have multiple salient identities. Latino and black are not mutually exclusive. All of those players you mentioned are most definitely Latino, but they are also most definitely black (not African-American but they are still of African descent).

So yea, some of these players can also be on an alltime Latino list, but that's not a list I'm making now...I figured I wouldn’t need much relief with these starters. I also doubt anything would drop in with this outfield…

25 man roster

1. Cool Papa Bell - CF
2. Judy Johnson - 3B
3. Buck Leonard - 1B
4. Josh Gibson - C
5. Oscar Charleston - RF
6. Willie Mays - LF
7. Pop Lloyd - SS
8. Martin DiHigo - 2B
9. Satchel Paige - P

bench – Joe Morgan
bench - Roy Campanella
bench - Cristobal Torriente
bench – Roberto Clemente
bench - Frank Robinson
bench - Rickey Henderson
bench – Hank Aaron
bench – Ernie Banks

starting pitcher - Satchel Paige
starting pitcher - Pedro Martinez
starting pitcher - Bob Gibson
starting pitcher - Juan Marichal
starting pitcher – Vida Blue

bullpen - Smokey Joe Williams
bullpen - Mariano Rivera
bullpen - Joe Rogan
bullpen – Ferguson Jenkins

[TonyK]

Check post 14, at second base.

Jim Albright

Wise choice. ;-)

[jalbright]

I haven't seen Hall of Famer Frank Grant's name mentioned yet.

Check post 14, at second base.

Jim Albright

[TonyK]

I haven't seen Hall of Famer Frank Grant's name mentioned yet.