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HOF Candidacy Of Minoso, One of the last Negro League Stars Is Apparently Over

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  • #16
    Originally posted by philliesfiend55 View Post
    "Living Hall Of Famers (Voters) are not expected to do any research" (for Veterans Committee elections) - Paul Wendt.

    But in reality shouldn't they be expected to do some research or have the Hall Of Fame provide highly detailed statistical records for each candidate, if only to refresh their memories? Are they really doing their voting based solely on their memories of the candidates' abilities and reputations, when those memories may be anywhere from three to six decades old.
    "shouldn't they be expected"? Practically, no.

    If you are soliciting my interpretation of the whole shebang:

    Living Hall of Fame members have gained weight as a constituency of the Hall of Fame in the last decade or three. Partly, for example, the autograph market makes the attendance of living HOF players at induction weekend one major attraction for fans.

    On the 2001 reform (scrapping the famous Veterans Committee): Living HOF players wanted more control over the election of players, partly or mainly in order to keep out the Bill Mazeroskis (and Bid McPhees? I'm not sure). NBHOFM was willing to cough that up to them.

    On the 2007 reform: NBHOFM took back some territory, all of the players who debuted in the major leagues before 1943. Why should living HOFers have any say? (Premise, presumably obvious to both sides: living HOFers do not research. On 1939 they defer to Bobby Doerr. On 1941 they defer to Doerr and Musial. I exaggerate but I believe that is very roughly the premise.) As quid pro quo, NBHOFM dismissed the honored broadcasters and writers from the veteran players electorate. The HOF players now hold a bigger share of the vote on post-1942 players.

    The pre-1943 election, whose voters will primarily consist of baseball writers and historians, will end up being a far fairer election than the 1943 and later election. If living Hall Of Famer voters are receiving little statistical and research help and are casting their votes based on old, and often faulty memories.
    I hope that the pre-1943 players will be considered more fairly or appropriately. On the negative side, the NBHOFM has appointed 7 HOF players to a committee of 12, and its historians are mainly old writers rather than scholars.

    Comment


    • #17
      Buck O'neal Is In the Hall

      I am very upset that Buck is NOT enshirned in the Hall, but he is very much in the other part of the Hall of Fame. I was so excited to see his statue placed this year. I had my photo taken with the great one. While I was getting my photo taken next to Buck someone asked me who he was. I was very proud to tell him what he did for baseball during his playing days and after. I had the honor of meeting him about 10 years ago in Rochester NY. He gave a talk (about 2 hours in length) and you could have heard a pin drop. Baseball lost a lot, the day ole Buck passed away. He will never be forgotten while his statue stands in Cooperstown............

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dennie Cunningham View Post
        I am very upset that Buck is NOT enshirned in the Hall, but he is very much in the other part of the Hall of Fame. I was so excited to see his statue placed this year. I had my photo taken with the great one. While I was getting my photo taken next to Buck someone asked me who he was. I was very proud to tell him what he did for baseball during his playing days and after. I had the honor of meeting him about 10 years ago in Rochester NY. He gave a talk (about 2 hours in length) and you could have heard a pin drop. Baseball lost a lot, the day ole Buck passed away. He will never be forgotten while his statue stands in Cooperstown............
        Good for you, Mr. Cunningham. Nothing helps keep a memory alive better than educating those who don't know.
        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dennie Cunningham View Post
          I am very upset that Buck is NOT enshirned in the Hall, but he is very much in the other part of the Hall of Fame.
          That would be the Museum.

          In my view, the Hall of Fame is diminished by its failure to include O'Neil, and the date for my next visit was rescheduled to "unknown" when they did it.

          Comment


          • #20
            PhF makes a fine argument, as did Bill James in one of his books. Minoso is definitely a worthy Hall candidate. At the very least, it's a bad thing that he should be dropped from consideration, even if it's not necessarily a total final exclusion.


            Following a tangent - there's a group of HOF voters who've been specifically tasked with not doing research into the candidates' qualifications? Gee, that's a good idea.

            Comment


            • #21
              HOF Bd. Of Directors Attitude Contributes To Continuing Farce-Like Elections

              "Minoso is definitely a worthy Hall candidate. At the very least, it's a bad thing that he should be dropped from consideration, even if it's not necessarily a total final exclusion". - West Side Grounds.

              All you can say about Minoso is that is candidacy is still alive "On Paper".
              But that's about all you can say about the candidacies of Ron Santo, Jim Kaat, Gil Hodges and Tony Oliva as well as long as the vote remains in the hands of these Living Hall Of Famers who seem determined to close the door on new admissions. They have proven four consecutive times that their attitude is that "Prospective Members Need Not Apply - We're Not Taking Applications".
              What makes it worse is that the Hall's Board Of Directors members, like Jane Forbes Clark "get their backs up" to defend the voting electorate, and don't take criticism well. Rather than admit that there might be some need to change the system, they defend the HOF ballplayers, who in my opinion are shirking their duties and not giving candidates due consideration.
              Clark stated that the voting procedures weren't reformed in 2007 to make someone more likely to get elected each election year, but she she should consider why no one has been elected in any year, with HOF players doing the voting. They have in fact turned these Veteran Committee elections into worthless farces.
              Minoso's best chance of election might come if the cutoff date for the debut of a candidate's major league career is moved up a few years from now from the '42/'43 cutoff point to '49/'50 or later. The committee for earlier players (with the elevation of Joe Gordon to HOF status and the very close near-miss of Allie Reynolds, who fell short by one vote) at least seems willing to elect Somebody!.

              -philliesfiend55-

              Comment


              • #22
                Look, the VC has to go. The post-1943 players have to be approved by 75% of the living HoFers. Nobody is going to get that so get rid of this part of the VC.

                The pre-1943 VC darn near elected Allie Reynolds for crying out loud. Joe Gordon is an okay selection, but Reynolds?? Not when you have far more qualified candidates on the ballot.

                Even though there are deserving candidates out there let's just scrub the VC and avoid mistakes. Heck all these pre-1943 guys are dead anyway.
                Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                Comment


                • #23
                  Today next-door, Freakshow reports that Minoso was one of 21 intermediate candidates named by the HOC this year (see #29-31). (I have not searched the NBHOFM website for the article that FS recalls.) Evidently the 21 passed some version of stage one, perhaps internal to the HOC. Perhaps the HOC simply chose to release those eleven extra names for honorable mention, in effect.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Yesterday next-door someone observed that living Hall of Fame members do the voting now, and that may be a turn against Minoso even if he on the ballot. Did many players of his coaching days feel that the one-game stunts made a mockery of the game?

                    In reply I suggested that he may have lost as much image (the thread was about public identity that comes with long service on a single team) by a two-year return to Cleveland that coincided with the Go Go White Sox knocking off the Yankees --and winning the first Chisox pennant since the Black Sox.

                    Plausibly that season made the difference for Al Lopez and Nellie Fox.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I used to feel Minnie Minoso got support due to sympathy but nowdays I really feel he deserves to be elected.
                      "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                      "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

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                      • #26
                        Minnie Minoso will still be a candidate for the next "Golden Era - (1947-1972) Veterans Committee" election. That election will be held in December 2014 for the Class Of 2015. According to varying accounts, if he survives until that election he will be somewhere between 89 and 92, depending on which birth date you believe. I feel that he is developing more support and he's moved closer to being elected. It really amazes me that both the Hispanic and Black communities don't get behind an election campaign in his behalf. He was a pioneer for both Hispanics and Blacks in major league baseball and there is no doubt that the racial barrier blocked his attempt to get to the majors sooner and that he start of his major leagues career was delayed by the racial separatist structure of society in the 1940s. This late start hurt his overall career numbers. Instead of having his career total of about 1950 base hits he could have finished his career with over 2500 hits. Instead of just under 200 stolen bases and just under 200 home runs, he might have had over 300 SBs and 300 HRs, and his other career stats would have been effected similarly. If he'd have been able to reach the majors at a much earlier age, if the racial barriers had fallen in the 1930s before his career started, instead of in the late 1940s and early 1950s, after Minoso had started his pro baseball career, his career longevity and all his career numbers would have been much greater and much more impressive.
                        If Minoso should pass away before the next election he is eligible for in December 2014, who can say if that will hurt or help his Hall Of Fame chances? It might help his chances for the first election, but if he's not elected in '14, it will probably then then hurt his chances at subsequent elections (as deceased players tend to be forgotten by nominators and voters fairly quickly). IE: 1928-1947, Cleveland Indians pitcher, Mel Harder stayed on the Veterans Committee ballot for many years, but after he passed away at age 93 in 2002, I don't think he was ever nominated again. except perhaps for the first VC election after his death in 2003.

                        -Dennis Orlandini (philliesfiend55).

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