Negro League Stats debunked

[Imapotato]

From a reliable source...who read it on the Denver Post, it seems baseball historians are delving into finding all stats associated with the myths of the Negro Leagues.

And this will surely cause an eyebrow raise amongst most of you, especially Mr. Burgess

Josh Gibson, was found that he DID hit 4 HRs in a game, but his 'career' Hrs? Just 200 folks

Satchel Paige, Mr. Mystique...only 126 wins.

Also it is found that most of the white teams they faced in exhibitions were hastily thrown together, with players out of position, plus many AAA or lower talent playing with the 'stars' of MLB.

And, its good to be back, got a new cpu since my hard drive crapped out...and my first post back, will surely be controversial but most of you will find the stats when they come out into the general public...

Which ALSO reminds me, baseball reference is doing a survey, one of the mentiuoned additions is Negro League and All American Ladies stats...please take the survey and vote that for highest priority!

[catcher24]

Originally posted by Imapotato
baseball reference is doing a survey, one of the mentiuoned additions is Negro League and All American Ladies stats...please take the survey and vote that for highest priority

Sorry, I already took the survey, and my highest priority was the inclusion of Win Shares, Runs Created and several other of the newer stats. IMHO, that information is most important because it shelps to further evaluate the players who performed in the major leagues. I think no matter how much research is done, the Negro League stats will always be questionable at best. As far as the AAGPBL, I really haven't seen much discussion of that on this or any other site. Just my personal preference.

[RuthMayBond]

From a reliable source...who read it on the Denver Post, it seems baseball historians are delving into finding all stats associated with the myths of the Negro Leagues.

And this will surely cause an eyebrow raise amongst most of you, especially Mr. Burgess

Josh Gibson, was found that he DID hit 4 HRs in a game, but his 'career' Hrs? Just 200 folks

Satchel Paige, Mr. Mystique...only 126 wins.

Also it is found that most of the white teams they faced in exhibitions were hastily thrown together

I don't suppose this source is reliable enough to be named? Satch might have only got 126 wins since they sometimes removed him before the fifth to have others pitch. And you're tellng me the white players agreed to be hastily thrown together and play out of position?

[cubbieinexile]

If somebody came up to you and was willing to give you some money to play baseball, wouldn't you say yes? It is an exhibition.

[RuthMayBond]

If somebody came up to you and was willing to give you some money to play baseball, wouldn't you say yes? It is an exhibition.

ML team owners representatives come up to players (ok, their agents nowadays) and are willing to give them some money to play baseball. Are you saying that the MLs are exhibitions, what's your point?

[AG2004]

It's not much of a surprise with Gibson - his home run totals depend on which games you count.

If you count just Negro League games, then his HR totals are that low. However, there just weren't that many games in a season. Eighty would be on the high side, and, as I recall, there were more games during the 1920s than there were in the 1930s (depression) and 1940s (war). Also, for a few years, there was no league to play in, hence no HRs in league games. This is the context that produced about 200 home runs; put Mel Ott in such a context (much shorter seasons, and occasionally no seasons at all) and he would hit about 200 home runs as well.

[cubbieinexile]

You seemed doubtful to the veracity of the claim that white players would allow themselves to be put on exhibition teams hastily and man positions they normally would not. I am saying that it does not seem odd that that would happen. If you are a minor league ball-player or even a major leaguer playing in 1920's, 30's, or 40's you are not making a whole lot of money so why would they balk at playing in exhibitions for money?

[Bill Burgess]

Imapotato,

When you say that Josh Gibson hit only 200 HRs in his career, I wish you would explain yourself. Are you referring to only NL games and excluding all of his Mexican L. games, and his Cuban L. games? Why would one want to exclude L. games in other leagues?

Here is an exceprt from Biographical Encyclopedia of Negro Baseball Leagues.

"Gibson was credited with 962 HRs in his 17 yr. career, algthough many of these were against nonleague teams. Many of the individual season marks that are accredited to him also are against all levels of opposition."

So, nobody is even trying to hide anything. So to say that he hit only 200 HRs, and hope that that explodes like a bombshell in the court of public opinion, is to ignore that the Mexican, Cuban Leagues were organized, had scheduled league games, set rosters, etc. And why exclude the exhibitions against the white MLers? Those games were not like Harlem Globetrotter exhibitions. They were hard fought, and they counted "for the record", as the NLers also like to say about when they beat ML white guys.

We will hopefully see if your predictions come true in the way you describe.

Bill Burgess

[Imapotato]

No, only exhibitions against white teams were eliminated.

RMB, I said it came from the Denver Post, I am not subscribed, but his name on another board is baseballMan, and he is quite knowledgable, I'd stake my house on his claim that this is exactly what he read.

As for white exhibition teams, yes many would play out of position, many went to Mexico to play in the offseason...they needed money, something today's ballplayers don't have to worry about.

Plus, consider that even Babe Ruth got fined, suispended and chastised by Landis for playing barnstorming tours, then it was only 'favorable' players (notice I did not say the BEST) that could get away with these exhibitions, and face the wrath of their owners and the commisioner w/o many problems.

If you were a higher level guy, say like, Pie Traynor, but were only making 5K a year...would you take the risk that if you played these exhibitions, that you could cover the fines if caught?

Just because a handful of well paid Yankees could play these games, many were filled with PCL guys or lower level minor guys from the American Association.

Doesn't put much stock in saying Pop Llyod was great, because he hit .300+ against Ruth, Gehrig, Grove and a bunch of bums is it?

They were good players, but the myth surrounding them irritates me, and then we look at Jackie Robinson, and he is not placed as an all time top 15 guy...bypassed by guys that played in a inferior league, it confounds me.

[eephus75]

Can someone recomend good sources for NeL info? I admit I don't know as much as I should about them.

As for the AAGPBL, since it was originated by MLB, why not have it's stats on a reference site? They played 12 years, and have been recognized for their contributions in Cooperstown. :gt

[Bill Burgess]

eephus75,

I given these often but here we go again.

1. The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues, by James A. Riley, 1994, 2002

2. Voices From the Great Black Baseball Leagues, by John Holway, 1975.

Bill Burgess

[The Only Nolan]

They were good players, but the myth surrounding them irritates me, and then we look at Jackie Robinson, and he is not placed as an all time top 15 guy...

I doubt even many of Jackie's Negro League contemporaries would put him as an all-time top 15 guy. Buck O'Neil said there were at least several Negro Leaguers in the late-40's who were better than Jackie. So if Jackie 1)wasn't on the short list of best Negro Leaguers during his own time, and 2)had such a short, if brilliant, career as a Major Leaguer, that definitely leaves him vulnerable to being passed by at least a couple (and probably more) Negro Leaguers who were considered on the short-list of greatest players ever, not just by NL contemporaries but by Major Leaguers, too.

[cubbieinexile]

So who were the several negro leaguers playing in the late-40's that were better then Jackie? AS of right now most of the negro-leaguers who became major leaguers at or around that time were not better then Jackie in my mind. The truly better player came in the 50's. Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Ernie Banks. None of them I believe would have been in a position to be considered better then Jackie in the late-40's.

Is it possible that Buck O'Neil might have been saying that to prop up interest in the Negro leagues at the time. A bit of promotion I guess you could say. Don't really know do not know when Buck said it or in what context he said it. I sort of take most negro leaguers comments on Jackie with a grain of salt. Jackie played part of one season in the Negro Leagues then went up to Canada and then played for Brooklyn. He did this in age that did not have satellite, tv in every house, and games broadcasted to every market every day.

I'm not saying that Jackie was the best of the best but just that without knowing more about how much info and exposure quoted people truly have I find it hard to believe them without some doubts.

[Imapotato]

and NONE of those 'better' players would have been in the ML if not for Jackie.

Jackie not only had phenominial stats because he was intelligent and an overachiever, but he was a leader amongst men, white or black.

Willie Mays, if he (pretty much a racist) became the 1st black ballplayer, desegregation would have been set back a decade if not more...Mays wouldn't have been able to handle it.

[Edgartohof]

From a reliable source...who read it on the Denver Post, it seems baseball historians are delving into finding all stats associated with the myths of the Negro Leagues.

And this will surely cause an eyebrow raise amongst most of you, especially Mr. Burgess

Josh Gibson, was found that he DID hit 4 HRs in a game, but his 'career' Hrs? Just 200 folks

Satchel Paige, Mr. Mystique...only 126 wins.

Also it is found that most of the white teams they faced in exhibitions were hastily thrown together, with players out of position, plus many AAA or lower talent playing with the 'stars' of MLB.

And, its good to be back, got a new cpu since my hard drive crapped out...and my first post back, will surely be controversial but most of you will find the stats when they come out into the general public...

Which ALSO reminds me, baseball reference is doing a survey, one of the mentiuoned additions is Negro League and All American Ladies stats...please take the survey and vote that for highest priority!

Not to say that there was any lying, or even any bias in this story, and in the searching, but just because one group of people say something, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is true.

I would first off like to know where and how they came up with all of this information, and if I could, try to look at it myself.

I personally do not like what they say in this finding, because I personally rank Negro League players higher than most. But I also try to look at several sources to form an opinion. I listen to people who are more knowledgeable than me (and even to those who are less so ).

But just as OPS mistakinglysays Mark Mcgwire is almost as good as Ty Cobb and Jimmie Foxx, and better than Stan Musial, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron, Having one source say something does not mean it is true.