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Negro League Stats debunked

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  • #16
    Let me start by saying, "what a shame", that Gibson, Paige and other great and very good black players did not play in MLB simply because of skin color. The history of MLB would have been greatly enriched had some of them been given the opportunity.

    With that said, as far as ever getting reliable accurate stats from black baseball, I doubt it will ever happen. I myself have never seen Josh Gibson credited with more than 200+ home runs. Hard to believe that he hit 962 home runs. Thats over a hundred more than Aaron and Ruth, by a man who passed away before the age of 37. Myself, I believe he probably hit a lot more than 200+ home runs but how will we ever know the actual count. Black baseball did at times play seasons of close to 170-180 games so Josh did have plenty of oppertunities.
    Even black newspapers that covered some games at times never gave an actual box score with the number of at bats and hits...doubles..triples..etc.Many gave a text, a game recap. Also, not to diminish what some of the great black hitters did but in some games due to lean pitching rosters, position players were used as starting pitchers. You might have a second baseman or an outfielder used as a starting pitcher.

    One thing we can be sure of, there were some blacks not as good as some white players, some as good and some better than some white players.As far as ever seeing stats that could be termed as reliable, I don't think so.

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    • #17
      I don't know who Buck O'Neil had in mind when he said that the Negro L. had better players in the late 40's.

      But I just looked over my index of Negro players and came up with these names. In 1947, when Jackie was in the process of breaking the color line, the following NL players were in the Negro Leagues, but were aging, so Branch Rickey might well have not wanted to use them as models.

      Monte Irvin, OF was 28 in 1947. Now in Hall of Fame.
      Pee Wee Butts, SS was 28 in 1947.
      Leon Day, Pitcher, was 32 in 1947. Now in Hall of Fame.
      Ray Dandridge, 3B, was 34 in 1947. Now in Hall of Fame.
      Jumbo Kimbro, OF was 35 in 1947.
      Pat Patterson, 3B, was 36 in 1947.

      Josh Gibson died suddenly and unexpectedly on Jan. 20, 1947. He was only 36 yrs. old. I don't know if Buck O'Neil was thinking of Josh, but who knows what he was thinking.

      Also, some posters, and I as well, have wondered how a lot of new information suddenly come along. Well, I don't know. But I can say that in my case, as a researcher, the sudden availability of newspapers on digital, is making it a whole lot easier to find stuff, and that includes boxscores.

      The Baltimore Afro-American newspaper is now available via Paperofrecord, 1902-76, and they are adding to it all the time. Is it possible that a black researcher can sit in his home, and simply sift throught such a resourch and record all the Negro L. games that that paper carried? Of course he could. And in so doing, compile a great number of games, that were unavailable before.

      Before, one would have had to go to Baltimore, sit in front of their micro-film reader, and spent months, getting what he can now get in mere hours.

      Is it possible that Proquest, is also making it possible to do the same thing. Simply sit at home in front of ones compurter, and sift through the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, and Los Angeles Times, and cherry pick Negro L. games, all the way back to the 1880's. Why would that not be possible? We know that these major newspapers carried boxscores from around the country.

      So, I'm not saying that black researchers would avail themselves of these newly available resources, but what if they have, like I have, discovered these? All I'm suggesting is that these newly available resources have changed the way research is now possible. I know it's totally revamped and re-invented the stuff I can find.

      I myself use the Baltimore Afro-American to locate the death dates of Negro Leaguers, such as Santop Loftin. Got his death date that way.

      So to those who wonder how can such ancient, arcane stuff suddenly be found, the digital world is upon us. And what if other black papers are up online, with their entire runs. Hmm. Makes a difference. Just a thought.

      Bill Burgess
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-13-2004, 07:00 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Mays wouldn't have made it?

        I'm shocked, Imapotato, that you would think all the records from some games you never saw with your own eyes would be suspect, simply because you don't want to believe them. Gibson hit seventy five home runs in one season, and led the Negro Leagues in that category for ten straight years, and you can look it up! I'm more than a little annoyed at revisionists that claim the concentration camps had cholera outbreaks that killed millions, and that forced labor, starvation, and torture had nothing to do with the holocaust. Same with crackpots trying to rewrite the history of the Negro Leagues; eliminating any statistical evidence that runs contrary to their presumed conclusions.

        If you want definitive records for the games and the competitors, the players banned from MLB by virtue of their skin color, visit the NLBPA museum in K.C., visit their website at:

        www.nlbpa.com/index.html

        for the finest research website currently available, check:

        www.outoftheshadows.net

        be sure to check out all the links, there are literally years of reading available if you look for it, rather than rely on some fool with some vendetta against people of color.
        Baseball is a ballet without music. Drama without words ~Ernie Harwell

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by cubbieinexile
          You seemed doubtful to the veracity of the claim that white players would allow themselves to be put on exhibition teams hastily and man positions they normally would not. I am saying that it does not seem odd that that would happen. If you are a major leaguer playing in 1920's, 30's, or 40's you are not making a whole lot of money so why would they balk at playing in exhibitions for money?
          To avoid looking bad?
          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

          Comment


          • #20
            If avoiding looking bad was that important why would ballplayers play on bad teams?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by cubbieinexile
              If avoiding looking bad was that important why would ballplayers play on bad teams?
              That doesn't necessarily make them look bad, like playing out of position and gettting beat by Negro Leaguers can. But to answer your question, I'm guessing they want a main paycheck. But why look bad additionally?
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by trosmok
                I'm shocked, Imapotato, that you would think all the records from some games you never saw with your own eyes would be suspect, simply because you don't want to believe them. Gibson hit seventy five home runs in one season, and led the Negro Leagues in that category for ten straight years, and you can look it up! I'm more than a little annoyed at revisionists that claim the concentration camps had cholera outbreaks that killed millions, and that forced labor, starvation, and torture had nothing to do with the holocaust. Same with crackpots trying to rewrite the history of the Negro Leagues; eliminating any statistical evidence that runs contrary to their presumed conclusions.

                If you want definitive records for the games and the competitors, the players banned from MLB by virtue of their skin color, visit the NLBPA museum in K.C., visit their website at:

                www.nlbpa.com/index.html

                for the finest research website currently available, check:

                www.outoftheshadows.net

                be sure to check out all the links, there are literally years of reading available if you look for it, rather than rely on some fool with some vendetta against people of color.

                And I am shocked many of you would believe such outrageous claims based mainly on contemporaries accounts, like I stated they are 75% done with this ardous task, and the findings WILL change your mind.

                I have stated over and over again, that even IF Satchel Paige played in the 20's in MLB...his ERA would be high 3.00, his K totals would be atrocious...he'd be just like Stan Coveleski, Teddy Lyons...et al. One of the best pitchers of the 20's, but one who would be forgotten on all time lists just because his era make his stats look horrible.

                Many of you NEVER place Stan Coveleski in ANY pitcher lists yet he is the ONLY 1920 pitcher in ERA+ behind arguably the greatest pitcher that ever lived...Lefty Grove.

                How many of you say Stan Coveleski is one of the top 20 pitchers of all time? 0

                Paige would be known now as a good pitcher, very charismatic, and he and Dizzy Dean would probably be arm and arm as good pitchers with above average success and likable personalities, but none of you would rate him in your top 30 P list if he played.

                I always seem to think the Negro Leagues are akin to people who believe in past life, everyone is always Joan of Arc, El Cid, Atilla the Hun...no one is Joe Schmoe, horse droppings custodian. So every moderately succesful Negro League player is always "one of the best", "HOFer for SURE" instead of just an above average player

                I have seen those sites Trosmok...what I HAVEN'T seen is boxscores...and that is what these gentlemen are in the process of digging up...w/o the inflated stats of barnstorming/exhibition matches.

                You seem to think I am ignorant of the Negro Leagues, when in fact I am quite diverse, I just hold a different opinion based on those findings (in contrast to Edgartohof with his "less knowledgable comment"

                One thing I would really like answered, is why you have never noticed the 'great' players were almost always on the same teams? Does that not slight their reputation...that they played against vastly inferior teams, much like the National Associations Boston Red Stockings?

                The National Association, btw, is the closest reference point you can use for the Negro Leagues of the 20's, 30's

                As for Josh Gibson, I think he would have been a HOFer, but not in the mold of Cochrane or Hartnett....but more along the lines of Bill Dickey which isn't bad...he wopuld have came in an offensive HR packed era, and his decline would have been in a war depleted league, he very well could have finished with 450 Hrs.

                As for the 75 HR season, until I see the ballpark factors, dimensions (most were probably smaller than MLB) and boxscores...it will be a myth

                Now be honest if I said Pud Galvin and Roger Connor were the most overrated players of all time, despite their stats, who would argue with me with such veracity?

                No tell me why it's different... just because I say Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson? Seems people can't get skin color out of the discussion, whether for good or bad...
                Last edited by Imapotato; 12-13-2004, 08:31 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Its an exhibition. Players have been barnstorming for years, heck decades. It was a way of life back then. A way to scratch out a living. If a job pays and you don't have anything else lined up you are going to take the job.

                  Yeah maybe the rascist and bigots would not play against the Negro Leaguers, but I don't think these guys were the majority. Even if they were it still would leave hundreds if not thousands of professional ballplayers still available to play against them.

                  I really don't understand the stigma that you are trying to attach to a ballplayer playing out of position. I just don't see that being a major deal.

                  Promoter: "Hey Freddy Rightfielder, we don't have a centerfielder go play Center"

                  Freddy: "Heck no, I'm a Right Fielder, if I can't play right field I'm not playing"

                  That may happen I just don't see that happening at an industry wide level.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    ^^^

                    I think it was more along the lines of fear....to be fined because the owners complained to Landis that their "property" might get hurt in said exhibitions...much like Aaron Boone and his contract stating no pickup basketball.

                    Thing is, when you are making $15,000 a year...a $5,000 fine is really felt...that's why many above average/average players played under assumed names in Mexico, rather than barnstorm with highly paid Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Lefty Grove

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I don't think anybody in the world would rate Stan Coveleski is in the top 20 pitchers because he isn't. The guy had a short career and though he had a peak it wasn't enough to offset the fact that he only played 11 full seasons. Pitcher from hitters eras have shown up on top 20 lists. Pitchers like Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Lefty Grove, Pedro Martinez, and Carl Hubbell. That list is not even including pitchers that pitched in the 70's or 80's which was not a pitchers era, nor was it a hitters environment either. Pitchers like Seaver, Palmer, and Carlton.

                      So Pitchers who did not pitch in pitchers era do get their recognition and people do take environment into account.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        It is beyond belief that baseball archivist have been off track by so much for so long when tabulating Negro League stats.

                        I truly believe that the Negro League players that are enshrined in Cooperstown actually all belong there.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Imapotato
                          I have stated over and over again, that even IF Satchel Paige played in the 20's in MLB...his ERA would be high 3.00, his K totals would be atrocious
                          ...because when he was a million years old, he was still getting guys out?
                          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Imapotato
                            ^^^

                            I think it was more along the lines of fear....to be fined because the owners complained to Landis that their "property" might get hurt in said exhibitions...much like Aaron Boone and his contract stating no pickup basketball.

                            Thing is, when you are making $15,000 a year...a $5,000 fine is really felt...that's why many above average/average players played under assumed names in Mexico, rather than barnstorm with highly paid Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Lefty Grove

                            They played under assumed names because the Mexico Leagues were outlawed, if you played for them you were banned for life from the majors.

                            In the early 20's Landis cracked down on barnstorming because he was trying to clean up baseball and make it an "institution" again. Once the public bought into the PR that baseball was "saved" Landis loosened the reigns. Example being that he went light on Speaker, Cobb, and Wood and that he allowed players to play exhibitions and go on tours in the 30's.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Imapotato
                              I always seem to think the Negro Leagues are akin to people who believe in past life, everyone is always Joan of Arc, El Cid, Atilla the Hun...no one is Joe Schmoe, horse droppings custodian. So every moderately succesful Negro League player is always "one of the best", "HOFer for SURE" instead of just an above average player .
                              And you have the gall to call Willie Mays a racist? Try this
                              "The Negro Leagues also produced five of [on many lists] the top 100 in seven years in their death spasms-Jackie Robinson and Roy Campanella (1946), Willie Mays (1949), Hank Aaron (1952), and Ernie Banks (1953). If those leagues could produce five players like that in seven years, what about the previous forty?"
                              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Because they were denied

                                Think you are really missing the point, potato. The more statistical analysis that is completed using race blind information will prove, particularly to all the non-believers, that the level of competition between the Major and Negro Leagues is closer than ever suspected. The reason race comes up when looking at pre-Jackie days, is the simple fact that the wholesale banning of players based on the color of their skin is downright criminal, and worse than that, by jove, it is wrong. How can you not be mindful of the differences when they are as clear as the nose on your face? To artfully contradict what you seem to hope to find, namely that the records of Negro Leaguers are all overly inflated, check out this little gem from the guru:

                                http://www.baseballguru.com/jholway/...jholway43.html
                                Baseball is a ballet without music. Drama without words ~Ernie Harwell

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