Negro League Stats debunked

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Taking nothing away from Sadaharu Oh, lots of home runs, in any league. but he is not on par with Ruth or Aaron, smaller parks. Lets not just compare Oh's home park 288 to Ruth's 296, all games are not played at home. MLB parks on average, bigger than those in Japanese baseball.

Just a few former MLB hitters, some who could not keep a job in MLB and how they did in Japan.

Randy Bass led league in home runs 1985-1986.
Rich lancelloti led league in home runs 1987.
Ralph Bryant led league in home runs 1989-1993
Orestes Destrade led league in home runs 1990-1992.

Do we need any more proof, that home runs in Japanese baseball are more plentiful. These former MLB hitters were no sluggers, not over here, but over there....

[RuthMayBond]

But just as OPS mistakinglysays Mark Mcgwire is almost as good as Ty Cobb and Jimmie Foxx, and better than Stan Musial, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron, Having one source say something does not mean it is true.

OPS says that McGwire's Onbase plus Slugging, adjusted for park factor and compared with his league, is roughly comparable to Cobb or Foxx's rates. It doesn't say McGwire's almost as good, says nothing about batting average, fielding, baserunning, positional difficulty, length of career or anything else. So let's try to not invent things.

[Edgartohof]

And I am shocked many of you would believe such outrageous claims based mainly on contemporaries accounts, like I stated they are 75% done with this ardous task, and the findings WILL change your mind.

I have stated over and over again, that even IF Satchel Paige played in the 20's in MLB...his ERA would be high 3.00, his K totals would be atrocious...he'd be just like Stan Coveleski, Teddy Lyons...et al. One of the best pitchers of the 20's, but one who would be forgotten on all time lists just because his era make his stats look horrible.

Many of you NEVER place Stan Coveleski in ANY pitcher lists yet he is the ONLY 1920 pitcher in ERA+ behind arguably the greatest pitcher that ever lived...Lefty Grove.

How many of you say Stan Coveleski is one of the top 20 pitchers of all time? 0

Paige would be known now as a good pitcher, very charismatic, and he and Dizzy Dean would probably be arm and arm as good pitchers with above average success and likable personalities, but none of you would rate him in your top 30 P list if he played.

I always seem to think the Negro Leagues are akin to people who believe in past life, everyone is always Joan of Arc, El Cid, Atilla the Hun...no one is Joe Schmoe, horse droppings custodian. So every moderately succesful Negro League player is always "one of the best", "HOFer for SURE" instead of just an above average player

I have seen those sites Trosmok...what I HAVEN'T seen is boxscores...and that is what these gentlemen are in the process of digging up...w/o the inflated stats of barnstorming/exhibition matches.

You seem to think I am ignorant of the Negro Leagues, when in fact I am quite diverse, I just hold a different opinion based on those findings (in contrast to Edgartohof with his "less knowledgable comment"

One thing I would really like answered, is why you have never noticed the 'great' players were almost always on the same teams? Does that not slight their reputation...that they played against vastly inferior teams, much like the National Associations Boston Red Stockings?

The National Association, btw, is the closest reference point you can use for the Negro Leagues of the 20's, 30's

As for Josh Gibson, I think he would have been a HOFer, but not in the mold of Cochrane or Hartnett....but more along the lines of Bill Dickey which isn't bad...he wopuld have came in an offensive HR packed era, and his decline would have been in a war depleted league, he very well could have finished with 450 Hrs.

As for the 75 HR season, until I see the ballpark factors, dimensions (most were probably smaller than MLB) and boxscores...it will be a myth

Now be honest if I said Pud Galvin and Roger Connor were the most overrated players of all time, despite their stats, who would argue with me with such veracity?

No tell me why it's different... just because I say Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson? Seems people can't get skin color out of the discussion, whether for good or bad...

First off, how do you KNOW that players such as Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson, etc... would have only been very good or barely good instead of great as everyone before has said? What gives you the insight that Satchel Paige would have only had a 3.00 ERA? Please tell, because no one else in the world knows that, so that is quite a feat!

But since there is no way that you can KNOW that, then you need to be careful of what you say. So just because you do not believe something, until you have proof contrary to this, do not say other people's OPINIONS are wrong.

And so what if great players played on the same team at the same time. Two of the greatest players (Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig) did jsut that, and nobody counts anything against them. And it would have been different if one of them had played on a different team, the "league" would have been "stronger" - more good players on more teams.

And about my "less knowledgable comment", all I said is that we should not necessarily take what one group of people say at face value, I would wish that others (including myself) look further into it. Because to totally change a certain belief, such as Satchel Paige being one of the greatest pitchers of all time, that has been held for a long time, one needs a bit of proof.

I have never said that I know a lot about the Negro Leagues, but I do not appreciate it when someone says that my own opinions are wrong. That is what they are, these things are not facts, it is all SUBJECTIVE! Just like you say Lefty Grove is the greatest pitcher ever, well most do not hold that opinion, yet I do not say you are wrong, because in your mind, it is not.
Just like your belief in Negro Leaguers not being great is an OPINION, not a fact. I do not say your belief is wrong, so do not say mine is. I do not say your belief is wrong, so do not say mine is.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

First off, how do you KNOW that players such as Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson, etc... would have only been very good or barely good instead of great as everyone before has said? What gives you the insight that Satchel Paige would have only had a 3.00 ERA? Please tell, because no one else in the world knows that, so that is quite a feat!

But since there is no way that you can KNOW that, then you need to be careful of what you say. So just because you do not believe something, until you have proof contrary to this, do not say other people's OPINIONS are wrong.

EDGAR, glad to see your finally seeing the light. You tell one poster that he has no way of knowing how Paige or Gibson might have done. What right does he have to say that they would have been very good or barely good.

Well, suirprise I agree no way can anyone prove that they might have been only very good or barely good.

Now stop and think, are those that say they might have been the greatest have the right to say that, can they prove it.

We don't know where they would have finished on the all time list, very good and maybe great, but we don't know.Those that put Gibson at the top of the list are also blowing hot air, they don't know either.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Still the non-believers can't fathom how oral history can be as useful as the scribbling on paper they're accustomed to using as the only definitive sources. So, just for them I have a website they may enjoy:

TROSMOK, Your posting a lot but you have nothing to back up what you believe. lets see some stats, some career stats, year by year before you anoint all the black players that you believe to be the greatest.

I've said it before and here it is again. The early black players were as good as some white MLB and better than many white MLB, but we have no reliable career stats for any of them. Add to that, some of Gibson's home run totals came from exhibition games. Does that take anything away from Josh, no just a fact. Do I believe he would have shined, left his mark in MLB if given a chance, I believe he would have, he was a great hitter, lots of power a great catcher. Paige, Joe Dimaggio said Paige was as tough to hit as any pitcher he ever faced.

Where we differ, I don't see how we could place Josh or Paige in a specific position on the all time list. We have no way of knowing where they would have ranked, I would say high on the list but we have no way of knowing where.

Those that have a different view than you are not denying the great negro league players their due, only saying hard to say where they would rank all time if they did play MLB.

[trosmok]

And about my "less knowledgable comment", all I said is that we should not necessarily take what one group of people say at face value, I would wish that others (including myself) look further into it. Because to totally change a certain belief, such as Satchel Paige being one of the greatest pitchers of all time, that has been held for a long time, one needs a bit of proof.

Precisely my point. Proof can be firsthand, second hand, or from some yellowed scorecards. Satchel Paige had the respect and admiration of all that saw him pitch including Dizzy Dean who offered:"If Satch and I were pitching for the same team, we'd have the pennant clinched by the Fourth of July and then go fishin' until the World Series." Joe DiMaggio said: "After I got that hit off Paige, I knew I was ready for the big leagues." "Best I ever saw."~Bob Feller "Satchel Paige was the greatest pitcher in baseball."~Ted Williams. I put a cigarette in the dirt for a plate, and Satchel threw over it four out of five times.~Bill Veeck . I was fortunate to have seen Satchel Paige pitch a couple innings for the Browns in the twilight of his career, and even if he was only a fraction of his form in his prime, he was awesome to behold. Besides, I would never be so presumptious to think all those guys I just quoted, and my own eyes were somehow mistaken, and that Paige was just ordinary at best. Guess you have more reliable sources, oh ye of little faith?

[crouchingtiger]

Hey, why don't we add the home run totals of guys that used to play in Winterball and still do to their totals to make it seem like they hit 900+ HR? What about exhibition games like the all-star game? Better add those. And why not add their minor league totals to their stats as well?

And why is it limited to black players? Why no Japanese players who didn't come over to America? Why aren't they making these top 100 lists? If you're going to be race sensitive, why do you think its fair to exclude players with talent who weren't born into a situation where they could play the game here.

Some of you guys are unbelievable as to what you believe. A lot of you want so much for these stats to be legitimate and take biased quotes from baseball people and think that we're all going to buy this nonsense. Well I'm not buying. When I'm talking about the best players of all time, I'm talking about guys who played in the MAJOR LEAGUES. Guys who have verified stats and who played against the same quality of competition. It's always mentioned that white players stats benifited pre-integration years, but the real truth is that these Negro Leaguers benefited more with position players pitching and shoddy competition. Yeah, white players stats could look a little less impressive with some better hitters in the league, but how many black pitchers are there in the game? Their hitting stats wouldn't have dropped off much at all because there has always been very few black pitchers in the game. And what does that say for the stats of Negro Leaguers that most of the pitchers they were hitting off couldn't make it in the major leagues?

This stuff is all based on hype. It's like if I listened to some source like Baseball America who said Andruw Jones had the potential to compare with the all-time best players in the game, and his minor league stats back that up. Well you know what? What Andruw has done in the majors doesn't compare with the all-time best (on the offensive side). I am not buying. I'm sorry they weren't allowed to play and it was wrong that they weren't, however I don't think it's our job to make up our own version of the history of the best players in the game. No one has any idea where to place these guys on a list without a full record stats and facing minor league competition. To some of you, Andruw might just have been considered one of the all-time best players in the game based on hype had he not been allowed to play in the majors.

[RuthMayBond]

Some of you guys are unbelievable to what you believe. A lot of you want so much for these stats to be legitimate and take biased quotes from baseball people and think that we're all going to buy this nonsense.

Guys who have verified stats and who played against the same quality of competition.

You want us to buy that all those quotes are biased.

And what quality of competition are you referring to, the "quality" in the 19th century and the AL at its inception?

[J W]

I have never said that I know a lot about the Negro Leagues, but I do not appreciate it when someone says that my own opinions are wrong. That is what they are, these things are not facts, it is all SUBJECTIVE! Just like you say Lefty Grove is the greatest pitcher ever, well most do not hold that opinion, yet I do not say you are wrong, because in your mind, it is not. Just like your belief in Negro Leaguers not being great is an OPINION, not a fact. I do not say your belief is wrong, so do not say mine is. I do not say your belief is wrong, so do not say mine is.

Thank you.

And it holds true with all these rankings as well... no one ranking system is the ultimate truth. How could it be?

[cubbieinexile]

Just to throw some fuel on the fire.

A poster said that their were and is so few quality black pitchers that stats would only go down a little. Or something to that effect.

My view is that you don't need a lot of black pitchers to have an effect on batting stats. Especially before expansion and the 5 man rotation. Before integration you are talking about 16 teams with around 64 slots. Now if only 10 black pitcher replace "inferior" whte pitchers then you just altered the starting pitching stats by 16%. A huge alteration. I think are Negro League "experts" could find ten black pitchers who were better then 10 white starters for every year before integration. 10 pitchers is all it takes to alter the land scape by 16%. 10 pitchers getting just 30 starts each and pitching 7 innings is 2100 innings. Around a team and a half of total pitching. 10 pitchers getting 32 starts each at 8 innings is 2560 innings. Two teams worth of pitching. That is just ten of the best black replacing the ten worst white starters. You don't think replacing the the ten worst white starters with the ten best black starters is going to have an effect on hitting stats?

[J W]

Where we differ, I don't see how we could place Josh or Paige in a specific position on the all time list. We have no way of knowing where they would have ranked, I would say high on the list but we have no way of knowing where.

This is why I feel comfortable placing Gibson and Paige high up on my personal list, wherever they end up:

Any all-time list is subjective, unless it deals ONLY with statistics (a.k.a. "Career wins, MLB, all-time"). Therefore I don't see it as a static system. Babe Ruth might be #1 on my list today, and Willie Mays #1 tomorrow. My line of reasoning? I couldn't even tell you; I haven't thought of it yet. So the slots these players land in are more of an approximation than truth.

Knowing I can always revise my list... knowing Baseball Fever can revise its own lists... Gibson and Paige, and Charleston and Lloyd and Leonard and Mackey and Stearnes and Suttles and Williams and Rogan (and Oh and Kaneda for that matter) are fine right where they are.

[Imapotato]

EDGAR, glad to see your finally seeing the light. You tell one poster that he has no way of knowing how Paige or Gibson might have done. What right does he have to say that they would have been very good or barely good.

Well, suirprise I agree no way can anyone prove that they might have been only very good or barely good.

Now stop and think, are those that say they might have been the greatest have the right to say that, can they prove it.

We don't know where they would have finished on the all time list, very good and maybe great, but we don't know.Those that put Gibson at the top of the list are also blowing hot air, they don't know either.

Thank you Shoeless for getting the whole point of that post and not taken it literally.

That whole post was to draw out the ones who would say...how can you say that? and then try and defeat it with exactly the terms Edgar used. Yet, they use those subjective theories in just the opposite manner...so tell me why? Guilt? Too many articles on elaborations?
Anyway, the post got teh response I wanted...personal feelings are clouding the visions of the most avid Negro League Supporters. Many of us have Charleston, Lloyd, Gibson and Paige up there in the annals of great ballplayers, but to throw out 30 NL players as better than their white counterparts is not only a slap in the face to men who played at the highest level of competition and whom we can measure from a statistical standpoint, but it is also reverse racism

I do believe I just got checkmate.

[Imapotato]

Obviously, that's true. Nobody's saying that Josh Gibson would have hit over .400 with 50+ HR every year in MLB, just because he did it in the Negro Leagues. I think something along the order of 35 HR, .340 would be more accurate. Still making him one of the best players of all time.

and there was this kid named Sidd Finch...

[Imapotato]

Precisely my point. Proof can be firsthand, second hand, or from some yellowed scorecards. Satchel Paige had the respect and admiration of all that saw him pitch including Dizzy Dean who offered:"If Satch and I were pitching for the same team, we'd have the pennant clinched by the Fourth of July and then go fishin' until the World Series." Joe DiMaggio said: "After I got that hit off Paige, I knew I was ready for the big leagues." "Best I ever saw."~Bob Feller "Satchel Paige was the greatest pitcher in baseball."~Ted Williams. I put a cigarette in the dirt for a plate, and Satchel threw over it four out of five times.~Bill Veeck . I was fortunate to have seen Satchel Paige pitch a couple innings for the Browns in the twilight of his career, and even if he was only a fraction of his form in his prime, he was awesome to behold. Besides, I would never be so presumptious to think all those guys I just quoted, and my own eyes were somehow mistaken, and that Paige was just ordinary at best. Guess you have more reliable sources, oh ye of little faith?

Yea, and Ty Cobb owned Johnson and Waddell and had nothing but nice words to say about them.
Ted Williams NEVER said a bad thing about any player he faced...and if his quotes are to be taken to heart...20 pitchers were the best of all time that he faced.

Gheesh...these are athletes that have to be PC, when asked about a player specifically. Have you heard an old timer say "Bob Feller, damn he was overrated, we beat the snot out of him everytime he was on the mound, why is he a HOFer?"

Would never happen...

[Imapotato]

You want us to buy that all those quotes are biased.

And what quality of competition are you referring to, the "quality" in the 19th century and the AL at its inception?

How glorious...RMB you dug your own grave...you state time and time again, many Negro Legaue players were great, yet you bash the 19th century...how can you pull a Kerry so well?

I place 19th century and Negro League, modern day hitters and some 1930-1940 PCL guys arm in arm with one another...against their peers they may have been great, but against the whole, they don't match up

As for the AL..it was stronger from 1901-1905 then the NL
75% of elite NL talent jumped to NL in 1901
25% of elite NL talent jumped to NL in 1902
The Pirates finally lose players as most of their team jumps to the Highlander sin 1903
NL filled those positions with AAAA talent

Nap Lajoie > Honus Wagner

simple