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  • #91
    If you like Win shares then here is a list of secondbasemen ranking based on a win share formula through 2002.

    1 Eddie Collins 133.1
    2 Joe Morgan 125.61
    3 Rogers Hornsby 123.98
    4 Jackie Robinson 121.53
    5 Nap Lajoie 117.68
    6 Craig Biggio 108.37
    7 Ryne Sandberg 105.03
    8 Roberto Alomar 104.42
    9 Rod Carew 101.2
    10 Charlie Gehringer 98.89
    11 Bobby Grich 96.44
    12 Jeff Kent 95.01
    13 Joe Gordon 94.07
    14 Frankie Frisch 92.96
    15 Larry Doyle 91.61
    16 Billy Herman 91.27
    17 Nellie Fox 90.39
    18 Chuck Knoblauch 90.18
    19 Lou Whitaker 89.42
    20 Bobby Doerr 89.41
    21 Dick McAuliffe 86.8
    22 Cupid Childs 85.18
    23 Willie Randolph 84.83
    24 Tony Lazzeri 84.26
    25 Dave Lopes 84.21
    26 Johnny Evers 83.19
    27 Jim Gilliam 81.26
    28 Buddy Myer 77.76
    29 Red Schoendienst 76.83
    30 Bill Mazeroski 73.38
    31 Bid McPhee 72.92

    Comment


    • #92
      Someone asked how the Phil. A's fared in 1910, after the Tigers left.

      After the Tigers left Havana around Dec. 20, the Philadelphia Athletics arrived in Havana, without Eddie Collins or Jack Barry. The Cubans, again bolstered by the 4 US black stars, Pop Lloyd, Pete Hill, Bruce Petway, "Home Run" Johnson, beat the A's. The Cubans won 6 of 10 games.

      The Cubans won 1 more series from the Philadelpia Phillies in 1911.

      Finally, John McGraw's Giants won convincingly from the Cubans, in 1911. The very 1st white ML team to do so. They won 9 of 12 games against Havana & Almendares.
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-17-2004, 04:44 PM.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Imapotato
        Arghhh!

        I had a link to a catcher's page on my old hard drive RMB...
        I made a post previously, one that broke down I think Win Shares...Cochrane was #1

        Did we have a best C thread here, I probably posted it in there...he was also #2 in defensive win shares behind the unbelievable Schalk who had a career 9+ WS

        I'll look it up tomorrow, that would be my main criteria on why I think Cochrane is the best C of all time (used to be Hartnett)

        For 2b there's Hornsby, Lajoie...then a huge dropoff to Morgan, Lazzari and then many who interchange...2b I haven't looked into and studied as much as C and SS...two positions that have drastically changed over the years
        The unexplainable Win shares, great. If Lazzeri ahead of Collins is an example of your "proof" ...
        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

        Comment


        • #94
          Cubbie, what is that Win Share formula you have the list for? I can't seem to figure it out from career WS and WS/162.

          RMB, I don't see how any list involving WS would rank Lazzeri ahead of Collins. I'm sure imapotato simply didn't list him alongside Hornsby and Lajoie.

          There are five 2Bmen who have career WS/162 over 30: Hornsby (36.0), Collins (32.9), Lajoie (32.4), Morgan (31.3), and Robinson (30.1). Hornsby, Collins, and Morgan are the only three 2Bmen with over 500 career WS (Lajoie has 496). Robinson of course has much less (257).

          Lazzeri has 252 career WS, at a clip of 23.5 WS/162.
          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
            The unexplainable Win shares, great. If Lazzeri ahead of Collins is an example of your "proof" ...
            That's another paragraph, Sherlock

            My 2b rating was NOT based on win shares
            but I did forget Collins and Robinson....although the top 2 are Hornsby and Lajoie...
            Last edited by Imapotato; 12-18-2004, 01:57 AM.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by cubbieinexile
              If you like Win shares then here is a list of secondbasemen ranking based on a win share formula through 2002.

              1 Eddie Collins 133.1
              2 Joe Morgan 125.61
              3 Rogers Hornsby 123.98
              4 Jackie Robinson 121.53
              5 Nap Lajoie 117.68
              Lajoie behind Robinson, HOrnsby behind Morgan, interesting
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

              Comment


              • #97
                That Win share rating was based on several factors. Basically about a year ago in the Stat section of Fever there was a group of us that got to discussing Bill James and his rankings in his abstract. I believe most of us did not think that James used a very good method or at least one that could not be easily followed. I came up with a new formula that was based on win shares but it was different then the abstract.

                Here is a brief description:
                I changed the formula so that now to get the rankings I use a players top 4 season average plus best 8 consectutive year average as well as Total Win Shares/Total Games*162. Plus I changed the subjective part, taking out the clutch and defensive aspect since I have no way of knowing either of these. Bill's formula was a 3 year average plus 5 year consecutive average plus the Harmonic mean of career winshares divided by ten and 25. I removed the last part. Plus for the age bonus I set the cutoff at 1950. Meaning any player born after 1950 can only get a maximum age bonus of 12.

                Unfortunately for me when I got a new computer I failed to transfer over the files I had in my old hard drive. So the excel files that I had used to make these rankings are lost so I cannot update them or do further studies. Very very upset at this when I discovered it a couple of days ago.

                Anyway here is the SS rankings also based on the formula through 2002.
                1. Honus Wagner 149.66
                2. Alex Rodriguez 115.88
                3. Cal Ripken Jr 112.30
                4. Arky Vaughn 111.57
                5. Robin Yount 109.24
                6. Barry Larkin 106.91
                7. Derek Jeter 104.30
                8. Lou Boudreau 103.96
                9. Nomar Garciaparra 103.39
                10. Pee Wee Reese 101.66
                11 Alan Trammell 99.72
                12. Joe Cronin 98.88
                13. Luke Appling 98.36
                14. Johnny Pesky 95.04
                15. Jim Fregosi 94.06
                16. Ernie Banks 93.88
                17. Phil Rizzuto 93.86
                18. Vern Stephens 93.21
                19. Hughie Jennings 92.51
                20. Ozzie Smith 91.66
                21. George Davis 91.61
                22. Rico Petrocelli 89.68
                23. Bill Dahlen 87.94
                24. Tony Fernandez 87.65
                25. Joe Sewell 86.76
                26. Cecil Travis 85.92
                27. Dave Concepcion 85.07
                28. Maury Wills 84.81
                29. Joe Tinker 84.56
                30. Al Dark 84.36
                31. Bert Campaneris 84.18
                32. Herman Long 82.51
                33. Jay Bell 81.97
                34. Dave Bancroft 81.26
                35. Dick Groat 78.40
                36. Bobby Wallace 77.50
                37. Luis Apararicio 75.79

                Comment


                • #98
                  Cubbie,

                  Please excuse me for intruding onto a stat discussion. I know little of high-powered stats. But still . . . It looks as if the long career guys are really maxing out here, while the shorter career men aren't.

                  Might not a good way to measure them is to rate the quality of their 10 best yrs? And possibly award a modest bonus for longevity? Just asking.

                  And I don't understand what you mean when you say, you took out the defensive component.

                  "taking out the clutch and defensive aspect since I have no way of knowing either of these."

                  I'm perplexed as to the real meaning of that. Could you please explain that to a non-stat guy? Thanks.

                  Bill Burgess
                  Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-18-2004, 10:34 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    In Bill's original formula after he got done crunching the numbers bases purely on Win Shares he added a subjective element. The subjective element had to do with the playoffs, clutch hitting, defense (in terms of if he thinks Win shares gave too much value or too little value to a players win share total), and leadership. Bill does not tell us how he weighted only that he may or may not have given points to players. I took this part out because we have no real way of knowing these qualities for all players. Do we know how clutch Dan Brouthers was? Actually I just found the subjective criteria here it is:
                    The subject element...is a number between one and fifty, chosen to...adjust for:

                    1. Statistically undocumented portions of a player's career.
                    2. Inequalities in the caliber of competition.
                    3. World Series performance.
                    4. Positive or negative leadership.
                    5. Clutch performance.
                    6. Special contributions of the player undefined by the statistics.
                    7. Defensive value beyond that accounted for in the win shares system.

                    The problem with this system is that it is very hard to move the final outcome by a few points. Afterall we are talking about players that played a long time so to improve by a few points takes a lot. Bill can add up to 50 points which is a huge total for things that might not be true. In otherwords it is impossible to follow in his footsteps because Bill does not leave a guide. He does not break down Win shares between defense and offense so we have no way of knowing if it is under or over valued. We have no idea if he viewed someone as a leader or anti-leader. SEveral players in history have gotten both labels by different sets of people.

                    For instance we broke down first base rankings without the subjective element and according to his Bill's formula Dick ALlen was the second greatest first basemen of all time. Bill knocks him down to 15th for his final list. Basically Bill penalizes or give bonuses to others enough so that Dick loses 20 points. Which is a huge amount to lose, virtually impossible to lose that much in a career.

                    Then we looked at CF and found that without the subjective element Ty Cobb has a 10 point lead over Willie Mays for the honors of #1 CF.

                    This happens basically for all rankings in the abstract.

                    Now for the list question.
                    As I discussed in the original thread I value long term greatness over short peaks. If you have a 4 great years you will do well, if you play well for 8 years in a row you will do well. But I should point out that in no part of the equation does total win shares enter into the picture, in fact hanging around and playing badly hurts your score not helps it. If anything a player with say an 8 year run with no decline would probably score the highest in this setting. An example would be if Albert Pujols would play only 8 years at the level he is at and then retire. That would be a short career but in the end he would probably rank the highest of all players because he has no decline phase. The original formula rewarded players with even shorter peaks then my 3yr/5yr, I personally think that is too short when discussing the greatest of the greats. Also I should point out that is why Dick Allen showed up so high in the original rankings.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by [email protected]
                      Cubbie,

                      Please excuse me for intruding onto a stat discussion. I know little of high-powered stats. But still . . . It looks as if the long career guys are really maxing out here, while the shorter career men aren't.
                      Then explain (as of ONLY 2002) ARod, Vaughan, Jeter, Boudreau, Garciaparra
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cubbieinexile
                        Anyway here is the SS rankings also based on the formula through 2002.
                        1. Honus Wagner 149.66
                        2. Alex Rodriguez 115.88
                        3. Cal Ripken Jr 112.30
                        4. Arky Vaughn 111.57
                        5. Robin Yount 109.24
                        6. Barry Larkin 106.91
                        7. Derek Jeter 104.30
                        8. Lou Boudreau 103.96
                        9. Nomar Garciaparra 103.39
                        10. Pee Wee Reese 101.66
                        11 Alan Trammell 99.72
                        12. Joe Cronin 98.88
                        13. Luke Appling 98.36
                        14. Johnny Pesky 95.04
                        15. Jim Fregosi 94.06
                        16. Ernie Banks 93.88
                        17. Phil Rizzuto 93.86
                        18. Vern Stephens 93.21
                        19. Hughie Jennings 92.51
                        20. Ozzie Smith 91.66
                        21. George Davis 91.61
                        22. Rico Petrocelli 89.68
                        23. Bill Dahlen 87.94
                        24. Tony Fernandez 87.65
                        25. Joe Sewell 86.76
                        26. Cecil Travis 85.92
                        27. Dave Concepcion 85.07
                        28. Maury Wills 84.81
                        29. Joe Tinker 84.56
                        30. Al Dark 84.36
                        31. Bert Campaneris 84.18
                        32. Herman Long 82.51
                        33. Jay Bell 81.97
                        34. Dave Bancroft 81.26
                        35. Dick Groat 78.40
                        36. Bobby Wallace 77.50
                        37. Luis Apararicio 75.79
                        This has GOT to be Banks stuff ONLY when he played SS, right? But Larkin does not beat GDavis
                        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                        Comment


                        • Here is a pretty good analysis for Catchers from the Baseball Catcher Encyclopedia

                          The Overall Ranking of the 157 catchers who caught 800 or more games are shown in the below table, ordered by the Overall score.

                          The SCORES for both Offense and defense are Normalized Distributions (i.e. from 0.001 to 0.999) of the relative standing in each category. The Total Offense (and Defense) Score is an Average of the six selected percentile measures. This methodology is best suited when handling different categories of standardized scores (i.e. comparing Batting Average and Errors per Game).

                          The OFFENSIVE Categories used were: Batting Average (AVG), On-Base-Percentage (OBP), Slugging Average (SLG), Secondary Average (SECA), Runs Created (RC), Runs Created per 27 Outs Minus League Average RC27 (RC-LRC).

                          The DEFENSIVE Categories used were: Games Caught as a Percentage of Team's Games Played (GC), Assists per Game (A/G), Errors per Game (E/G), Fielding Average Minus League Fielding Average for Catchers (F-LFLD%), Doubleplays per Game (DP/G), and Passed Balls per Game (PB/G).

                          The GRAND TOTAL is an Average of the 6 Offensive and the 6 Defensive Categories.

                          To see the interactive spreadsheet display of the various components, just CLICK HERE FOR EXCEL SPREADSHEET
                          Catchers in RED are Hall-Of-Famers. Catchers in BLUE are Currently Active.



                          Code:
                          NickName LastName  G         OFF     DEF         TOT 
                          BILL          DICKEY 1708    0.962    0.683      0.822 
                          GABBY HARTNETT   1793    0.957    0.673     0.815 
                          MICKEY COCHRANE 1451     0.985   0.627      0.806 
                          YOGI BERRA           1699     0.914   0.630     0.772 
                          ROY CAMPANELLA   1183     0.900    0.610    0.755 
                          JOHNNY BENCH       1742     0.877    0.615    0.746 
                          MIKE PIAZZA          1317     0.993    0.487    0.740 
                          GARY CARTER         2056     0.798    0.658    0.728 
                          IVAN RODRIGUEZ     1427     0.837    0.569    0.703 
                          JASON KENDALL       913      0.803    0.591    0.697 
                          WALLY SCHANG      1435      0.883    0.493    0.688 
                          SPUD DAVIS           1282      0.799   0.570     0.685 
                          JOE TORRE              903       0.910   0.458    0.685 
                          ROGER BRESNAHAN   974       0.842   0.518    0.680 
                          CARLTON FISK         2229     0.851   0.507    0.679 
                          BILL FREEHAN          1581     0.753   0.591    0.672 
                          CHIEF MEYERS         911      0.667    0.673   0.670 
                          SHERM LOLLAR        1571     0.757    0.577   0.667 
                          RICK FERRELL         1806      0.737    0.591   0.664 
                          CHARLES JOHNSON   943      0.587    0.724    0.656 
                          CHRIS HOILES          819     0.784     0.525    0.655 
                          ERNIE LOMBARDI     1544      0.861    0.445    0.653 
                          CHARLIE BENNETT     954      0.692    0.592    0.642 
                          TED SIMMONS         1771     0.852    0.424    0.638 
                          RAY SCHALK            1727     0.454    0.806   0.630 
                          JACK CLEMENTS      1073      0.782    0.472   0.627 
                          DARRELL PORTER     1506      0.764    0.477   0.621
                          Ok so let's say Bill Dickey and Cochrane, plus Piazza need to have their offensive eras taken into account

                          As for defense Schalk blows ALL out of the water...Charles Johnson with little decline is second....but Johnny Kling is #2 all time with a .707 (way down the list)

                          And Jack Clements the old Philly is the best 19th century C

                          I can see the aviod Bench and Berra supporters...but look at that name and number of games less then the others...

                          Where's the love for Roy Campanella?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Imapotato
                            Code:
                            NickName LastName  G         OFF     DEF         TOT 
                            BILL          DICKEY 1708    0.962    0.683      0.822 
                            GABBY HARTNETT   1793    0.957    0.673     0.815 
                            MICKEY COCHRANE 1451     0.985   0.627      0.806 
                            YOGI BERRA           1699     0.914   0.630     0.772 
                            ROY CAMPANELLA   1183     0.900    0.610    0.755 
                            JOHNNY BENCH       1742     0.877    0.615    0.746 
                            MIKE PIAZZA          1317     0.993    0.487    0.740 
                            GARY CARTER         2056     0.798    0.658    0.728 
                            IVAN RODRIGUEZ     1427     0.837    0.569    0.703 
                            JASON KENDALL       913      0.803    0.591    0.697 
                            WALLY SCHANG      1435      0.883    0.493    0.688 
                            SPUD DAVIS           1282      0.799   0.570     0.685 
                            JOE TORRE              903       0.910   0.458    0.685 
                            ROGER BRESNAHAN   974       0.842   0.518    0.680 
                            CARLTON FISK         2229     0.851   0.507    0.679 
                            BILL FREEHAN          1581     0.753   0.591    0.672 
                            CHIEF MEYERS         911      0.667    0.673   0.670 
                            SHERM LOLLAR        1571     0.757    0.577   0.667 
                            RICK FERRELL         1806      0.737    0.591   0.664 
                            CHARLES JOHNSON   943      0.587    0.724    0.656 
                            CHRIS HOILES          819     0.784     0.525    0.655 
                            ERNIE LOMBARDI     1544      0.861    0.445    0.653 
                            CHARLIE BENNETT     954      0.692    0.592    0.642 
                            TED SIMMONS         1771     0.852    0.424    0.638 
                            RAY SCHALK            1727     0.454    0.806   0.630 
                            JACK CLEMENTS      1073      0.782    0.472   0.627 
                            DARRELL PORTER     1506      0.764    0.477   0.621
                            As for defense Schalk blows ALL out of the water...Charles Johnson with little decline is second....I can see the aviod Bench and Berra supporters...but look at that name and number of games less then the others...

                            Where's the love for Roy Campanella?
                            No surprise about Schalk, EXACTLY what the stats say, but you gotta be kidding about CJohnson. Love for Campy is on the Brooklyn forum!
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                            Comment


                            • I for one am not surprised to see Berra rank ahead of Bench here, after all most people who are in the know, realize Berra is the better catcher overall!!!
                              "Baseball is like church. Many attend. Few understand." - Leo Durocher -

                              Comment


                              • A little more cleaned up, makes it a little more intelligable/coherent. Thanks, Imapotato. We're back on track. 10-4, good buddy.

                                BILL DICKEY--------- 1708---0.962---0.683---0.822
                                GABBY HARTNETT----1793---0.957---0.673---0.815
                                MICKEY COCHRANE---1451---0.985---0.627---0.806
                                YOGI BERRA----------1699---0.914---0.630---0.772
                                ROY CAMPANELLA-----1183--0.900----0.610---0.755
                                JOHNNY BENCH-------1742---0.877----0.615---0.746
                                MIKE PIAZZA---------1317---0.993----0.487---0.740
                                GARY CARTER--------2056----0.798----0.658--0.728
                                IVAN RODRIGUEZ-----1427-----0.830---0.569--0.703
                                JASON KENDALL-------913-----0.803---0.591--0.697
                                WALLY SCHANG------1435-----0.883---0.493--0.688
                                SPUD DAVIS---------1282-----0.799---0.570--0.685
                                JOE TORRE-----------903-----0.910---0.458---0.685
                                ROGER BRESNAHAN---974-----0.842---0.518---0.680
                                CARLTON FISK------2229-----0.851---0.507---0.679
                                BILL FREEHAN-------1581-----0.753---0.591---0.672
                                CHIEF MEYERS-------911-----0.667---0.673---0.670
                                SHERM LOLLAR------1571-----0.757---0.577---0.667
                                RICK FERRELL-------1806-----0.737---0.590---0.664
                                CHARLES JOHNSON---943-----0.587---0.724---0.656
                                CHRIS HOILES--------819----0.784---0.525---0.655
                                ERNIE LOMBARDI----1544-----0.861---0.445---0.653
                                CHARLIE BENNETT----954----0.690---0.592----0.642
                                TED SIMMONs-------1771----0.852---0.424---0.638
                                RAY SCHALK---------1727----0.454---0.806---0.630
                                JACK CLEMENTS-----1073-----0.782---0.472---0.627
                                DARRELL PORTER----1506-----0.764----0.477--0.621
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-19-2004, 08:28 AM.

                                Comment

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