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Negro League Stats debunked

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    jalbright
    Researcher/advocate/mod

  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by MutOofd
    You might want to rephrase that as:

    until a couple of Afro-American QBs get a ring as a starter

    which might be more sufficient to ban these crazy thoughts, since one case in a statistical set might be an outlier
    Maybe. But my thinking is that it's easier for one QB to win a couple than for enough to win single rings to make those idiots go away. Either way, it's going to take a couple of Super Bowl championships in the space of a decade or so to make it happen.

    Jim Albright

    Leave a comment:

  • Blackout
    Circle of Bosses

  • Blackout
    replied
    my boy Eli Manning will make it harder for afro-american qb's to win superbowls

    Leave a comment:

  • MutOofd
    Registered User

  • MutOofd
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright
    I know about Doug Williams. Note the use of the plural in what you highlighted. I don't think this claptrap dies at least until some Afro-American QB gets a couple of rings as a starter . Did wonders for the public perception of Terry Bradshaw's IQ, that's for sure.

    Jim Albright
    You might want to rephrase that as:

    until a couple of Afro-American QBs get a ring as a starter

    which might be more sufficient to ban these crazy thoughts, since one case in a statistical set might be an outlier

    Leave a comment:

  • MutOofd
    Registered User

  • MutOofd
    replied
    Originally posted by trosmok
    The real question was slightly more sensible, but still perplexing for it to have been asked in the late eighties. Considering how far we had come since the strife of the late fifties and early sixties known as the Civil Rights movement, it seems the blathering and scribbling idiots love the taste of their own size twelves, even to this day. Here's the link:

    http://www.snopes.com/sports/football/williams.asp

    For my part, I'm a big fan of the rich tradition of word of mouth, and anecdotal evidence to tell of great feats from times gone by. I also trust most of the reporters of these tales to be truthful, as best they know, which is why you must take them for what they are worth. That is, possibly unverifiable, but still the best evidence of certain accomplishments or phenomena of which no written record is known to exist.:atthepc
    That's why I said "alledgedly"

    Leave a comment:

  • trosmok
    Veracious Member

  • trosmok
    replied
    Oral history is valid, but verify the words

    Originally posted by MutOofd
    Doug Williams led the Washington Redskins to the SuperBowl in the 87-88 season.

    Facing legendary Denver Broncos quarterback John Elway, Williams engineered a 42-10 rout, in which the Redskins set an NFL record by scoring five touchdowns in the second quarter. Williams completed 18 of 29 passes for 340 yards, with four TD passes, and was named Super Bowl MVP.

    Oh and as a sidenote, the man was alledgedly asked "How long have you been a black quarterback?" ...
    The real question was slightly more sensible, but still perplexing for it to have been asked in the late eighties. Considering how far we had come since the strife of the late fifties and early sixties known as the Civil Rights movement, it seems the blathering and scribbling idiots love the taste of their own size twelves, even to this day. Here's the link:

    http://www.snopes.com/sports/football/williams.asp

    For my part, I'm a big fan of the rich tradition of word of mouth, and anecdotal evidence to tell of great feats from times gone by. I also trust most of the reporters of these tales to be truthful, as best they know, which is why you must take them for what they are worth. That is, possibly unverifiable, but still the best evidence of certain accomplishments or phenomena of which no written record is known to exist.:atthepc

    Leave a comment:

  • jalbright
    Researcher/advocate/mod

  • jalbright
    replied
    I know about Doug Williams. Note the use of the plural in what you highlighted. I don't think this claptrap dies at least until some Afro-American QB gets a couple of rings as a starter . Did wonders for the public perception of Terry Bradshaw's IQ, that's for sure.

    Jim Albright

    Leave a comment:

  • MutOofd
    Registered User

  • MutOofd
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright
    Over the last 20 years or so, that idea has been being eased out of existence, but until we get an Afro-American QB to lead a few Super Bowl champs, I'm not sure we'll completely push such thinking into the sewer holes where it belongs. Just a couple of years ago, Rush Limbaugh made a big splash by mouthing such an idea about Donovan McNabb. I live in the Philly area, and I am thrilled to have such a classy, talented man at the helm of my team. He may have some flaws, but stupidity is not among them. Yet, because of his skin color, it is acceptable to some idiots to question his intelligence largely on that basis, though they cover their tails by citing the fact he hasn't yet won a Super Bowl and using code words like saying he's an "athlete" but not a "quarterback".

    Jim Albright
    Doug Williams led the Washington Redskins to the SuperBowl in the 87-88 season.

    Facing legendary Denver Broncos quarterback John Elway, Williams engineered a 42-10 rout, in which the Redskins set an NFL record by scoring five touchdowns in the second quarter. Williams completed 18 of 29 passes for 340 yards, with four TD passes, and was named Super Bowl MVP.

    Oh and as a sidenote, the man was alledgedly asked "How long have you been a black quarterback?" ...
    MutOofd
    Registered User
    Last edited by MutOofd; 06-05-2006, 08:05 AM.

    Leave a comment:

  • jalbright
    Researcher/advocate/mod

  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    No one can say that there were not some good and great pitchers in black baseball but across the board it was not on the level of MLB at that time. Black star Buck O'neil himself made that observation. Some good and great but overall not on the level of MLB. Certainly not to day white pitchers were superior to black pitchers. The pay was low, traveling and training conditions terrible and little scouting to find good black pitchers.

    Another note in regard to some of the offensive numbers put up by Josh and some others. Due to lean pitching staffs and times when a pitcher would pitch two games in the same day a position player would be used as a starting pitcher. It could be an infielder, outfielder or even catcher in the role of a starting pitcher. We have no way of knowing what the level of pitching was day to day in black baseball but the above words tell us at times it was not conistently good.

    For sure there were black hitters who were quite capable of hitting the best whete MLB pitchers but that in no way changes the fact that often in black baseball the high level pitching day to day was sparse.
    I agree that for a number of reasons, the pitching in the Negro Leagues wasn't as good as in the majors. As I've indicated, I'm sure many times even the best pitchers didn't bear down, especially when the game wasn't competitive. Position players would pitch, but generally in blowouts or against barnstorming opponents. The Negro Leagues played 2-3 games on the weekends, and had 2-3 good/decent starters. They'd pitch some in the barnstorming games during the week, but unless there was big money to be made, they'd be saved for another time. Even if the big guns pitched during the week, they'd often start a game and move to the field after 3-4 innings. Negro League teams usually carried 13-14 players, so versatility was valued.
    The majors had much more depth in pitching, so they'd go at it with strong effort almost all the time.

    But if a game was close late, I think the pitching would have been rather good then in the Negro Leagues. Even lesser teams needed some pitching, if for no other reason than to be able to draw fans to their games. And winning tough games at home against good opponents would get you good word of mouth in your home base.

    Jim Albright

    Leave a comment:

  • Bill Burgess
    Registered User

  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805
    Randall Cunningham you mean?
    That's the one. Good going.

    Bill

    Leave a comment:

  • Blackout
    Circle of Bosses

  • Blackout
    replied
    Randall Cunningham you mean?

    Leave a comment:

  • Bill Burgess
    Registered User

  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright
    Uh, Bill, please read the rest of the post you quoted part of (#200). It talks about that very QB and the issue of race.

    Jim Albright
    Wasn't there a guy before the one you cite. Cunningwood or Cumminghem. I just can't bring it up. I never really followed football, but was pleased a black was being allowed to quarterback at all. Made me feel good.

    I can't debate too many sports. Maybe track and Field, but definitely not Football or Basketball at all.

    Bill

    Leave a comment:

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    Registered User

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    No one can say that there were not some good and great pitchers in black baseball but across the board it was not on the level of MLB at that time. Black star Buck O'neil himself made that observation. Some good and great but overall not on the level of MLB. Certainly not to day white pitchers were superior to black pitchers. The pay was low, traveling and training conditions terrible and little scouting to find good black pitchers.

    Another note in regard to some of the offensive numbers put up by Josh and some others. Due to lean pitching staffs and times when a pitcher would pitch two games in the same day a position player would be used as a starting pitcher. It could be an infielder, outfielder or even catcher in the role of a starting pitcher. We have no way of knowing what the level of pitching was day to day in black baseball but the above words tell us at times it was not conistently good.

    For sure there were black hitters who were quite capable of hitting the best whete MLB pitchers but that in no way changes the fact that often in black baseball the high level pitching day to day was sparse.

    Leave a comment:

  • jalbright
    Researcher/advocate/mod

  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    I only know of those FB players whose fame has transcended their sport a little. Wasn't there a a black quarterback a while back in Philly?

    Bill
    Uh, Bill, please read the rest of the post you quoted part of (#200). It talks about that very QB and the issue of race.

    Jim Albright

    Leave a comment:

  • Bill Burgess
    Registered User

  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright
    But there's big money in those contact sports, too. Haven't you heard of baseball's program to reestablish itself in the inner cities? If the cities don't maintain those big grassy expanses that are ballfields, who's going to want to play on them? Where's the support structure (coaches, primarily) for the game in the cities? Playgrounds with a few hoops are good enough for basketball, and there's plenty of coaches around for that. Football is a big staple in so many high schools that programs sprout to ensure a supply of talent for that sport--so there's coaches.

    I don't know how into football you are, but in the pro game, we're just getting to a real supply of Afro-American starting quarterbacks.
    I only know of those FB players whose fame has transcended their sport a little. Wasn't there a a black quarterback a while back in Philly?

    It's good to know that racial stereo-types are breaking down. When I was a teen, I was up against the belief that one had to be black to rock dance great. After a few years, I got good enough to work in a New York dance club, and could win most of our challenges. And now, blacks are no longer steered to modern dance, away from ballet in pro companies. Race does play a big role in our thinking. Also, when I was young in the 60's, it was thought blacks could sprint well, but were not suited to long distances. The big distance running countries were the US, Russia and England. But now, African tribes have proven the fallacy of that flawed thinking, REAL BIG.

    Bill

    Leave a comment:

  • jalbright
    Researcher/advocate/mod

  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    And that is quite an intelligent question, which regretably, I haven't a clue to answering. I just don't know. But I would like to know. I remember that Willie Mays had a heck of a time when he first played in the white minors, and then again when he finally arrived in the MLs. Both times, he went something like 0-22. But he did finally get the hang of it.

    Bill
    But Willie only had about two years in the Negro Leagues before he went into "organized ball" and hadn't even established himself as much more than an adequate starter (if that) when he did so. Of course, he was quite young yet, so I think the real answer with Willie is he needed some time to develop--but not a lot.

    Jim Albright

    Leave a comment:

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