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  • #31
    Dobie Moore

    He really doesn't have many accolades, because he only played seven years in the Negro Leagues. However, that misses the fact Moore was making a living for the excellent 25th Infantry team (more about this later) from at least 1917, several years before he joined the Negro Leagues. Truthfully, for an Afro-American of the day, his career path represents a realistic way of making a living as a ballplayer.

    The Baseball Think Factory guys project him at 252 career win shares, starting in 1917, a best five consecutive of 155 and a top three of 36, 34 and 31. I think those marks leave him behind Barry Larkin (314; 130; and 32, 31 and 30), but ahead of Vern Stephens (265; 129; and 34, 32 and 27) and Lou Boudreau (277; 135; and 34, 32 and 30).

    William McNeil writes this of Moore on pages 105 and 106 of Cool Papas and Double Duties:
    "Dobie" Moore was a great shortstop whose brilliant career was cut short [by injuries suffered in an unfortunate incident] . . . [The 25th Infantry team] dominated the amateur sports world during the teens. The 25th included a number of players who would eventually leave the Army to [lead the Kansas City Monarchs to Negro League championships] . . . There was pitcher Bullet Joe Rogan, first baseman Lemuel Hawkins, second baseman Bob Fagan, and outfielders Oscar "Heavy" Johnson and Hurley McNair [in addition to Moore].

    Moore . . . was a sensational all-around ballplayer with a deadly bat and a trusty glove [well before going to the Monarchs] . . . After Casey Stengel played an exhibition game against the 25th in 1919, he recommended Moore and several other players to J. L. Wilkinson, owner of the Monarchs . . . .

    It didn't take Dobie Moore long to be recognized in the Negro National League. In addition to playing brilliant defense, he scorched the ball at the plate, with extra-base power. . . . [The 5' 11", 230 pound slugger hit .367 in 1922 and followed that season with averages of .358, .470, .326 and .381. In 1924, he captured the batting championship with his .470 average and also took the home-run crown . . . He was the Monarch's clean-up hitter for seven years.

    [With the former 25th Infantry players leading the way] the Monarchs raced to three league titles and one [Negro] World Championship between 1924 and 1926 . . .

    [On May 23, 1926, Moore became involved in a domestic dispute in which he was shot in the leg by his girlfriend and jumped off terrace to escape. It's unclear whether the shot, the landing from the jump, or the combination did the damage, but the bones in his leg were shattered into six pieces (See Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 566]

    In any case, a magnificent baseball career ended abruptly. The cold statistics say Dobie Moore had a career batting average of .355. with 32 doubles, 14 triples and 15 home runs for every 550 at bats. He was, according to all accounts, one of the top four shortstops in Negro League history [with Lloyd, Wells and Lundy] . . . but Dobie Moore could outhit all of them [for average] and was the greatest power hitter of the four, making him the best all-around shortstop in the annals of Negro league baseball.
    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #32
      Alejandro Oms

      The Baseball Think Factory guys haven't done Win Share estimates for him yet, but have estimated him as a career .330 hitter with about 2747 hits. They place him as a Hugh Duffy type outfielder. As I noted in the Jud Wilson comment, there's only one man with an average over .300 and over 2700 hits who isn't in Cooperstown, Al Oliver. Oliver has less power than the Oms projection, a lower average, and a significantly lower OBP. In short, there's good reason to prefer Oms to Oliver.

      Oms' record in Cuba is most impressive:
      --He played there 18 seasons (not counting a 1 AB stint in 1946 after 5 years of not playing)
      --He is third in career batting average at .345
      --He holds the record for the longest hitting streak, at 30 games
      --He holds the record for the most consecutive seasons (8) with a batting average over .300
      --He shares the record for the most seasons (11) with a batting average over .300
      --He was the MVP of the 1928-1929 winter season
      --He led the league in batting average 4 times, 2 of them consecutively
      --He led the league in doubles three times
      --He led the league in stolen bases once
      --He led the league in runs scored once, and
      --He led the league in hits twice.
      Source: Who's Who In Cuban Baseball, page 66 by Jorge Figueredo.

      Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues at page 588:
      Oms was the centerfielder of the great outfield of the Eastern Colored League's Cuban Stars of the 1920s. He had exceptional range, and an accurate but not strong arm . . . . He also was a very fast base runner and a skilled base stealer but was best known for his batting ability. A left-handed batter, he . . . hit to all fields with power . . . . He began his Negro League career in 1921 and finished [in 1935] with a .332 average . . . in the United States.

      He was a gentleman who controlled his temper, never arguing with an umpire. However, he did devise an unusual ploy to filter out anything he chose not to hear, pretending not to speak or understand English . . . .

      A proven winner, he played on four [Cuban league] championship teams. For his remarkable diamond feats in his homeland, he was elected to the Cuban Hall of Fame in 1944.
      Jim Albright
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #33
        This review of Artie Wilson by AG2004 is too good not to include here:
        Originally posted by AG2004
        My thoughts on how the color line affected Newcombe and a previous request about middle infielders of the 1940s led me to create two Keltner Lists out of curiosity. One is for Artie Wilson, and the other is for Marvin Williams.

        I'll start with Artie Wilson. I can hear the question now.

        Who was Artie Wilson?

        As I’ll explain below, Wilson is very similar to Vern Stephens except for two points: (a) Wilson had only a cup of coffee in the recognized major leagues, and (b) Wilson was Black, which helps explain (a).

        Vern Stephens was born on October 23, 1920; Wilson, just five days later, on October 28, 1920. Wilson was a star in the Negro Leagues during the mid-1940s, just as Stephens was a star in the (white) Major Leagues. After the 1948 season, the Birmingham Barons sold Wilson to the Yankees. However, Wilson refused to take a pay cut to play under hostile conditions in Newark, and signed with the Pacific Coast League’s San Diego Padres instead. Because the Yankees had the rights to Wilson, the contract with the Padres was voided, and Wilson soon ended up with the Oakland Oaks.

        African-American players who were born around 1920 sometimes received tests by major league teams in the early 1950s. If they passed, they might, like Sam Jethroe for the Braves, have a handful of decent years. Wilson, however, went 4-for-22 with the Giants. This could just be bad luck; someone going 7-for-22 would be batting .300, and a difference three hits in 22 AB is within the bounds of chance. Wilson was sent down to the minors to make room for Willie Mays, and bounced around the minors for a few more seasons.

        A player like Stephens, who had trouble in 1952, would be given the benefit of the doubt during a poor season and could hang around the majors for a few more years. It’s hard to find any major leaguer who didn’t go through a 4-for-22 slump sometimes. However, thirty-plus-year-old rookies usually don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

        Therefore, due to integration coming in the middle of their careers, a player like Wilson or his contemporary Marvin Williams would have had a few years in the Negro Leagues, but nowhere near enough to be considered a legend. They would then have bouncd around the minors for a few years, while comparable players like Bobby Doerr or Vern Stephens would have their decline phase take place in the major leagues. Wilson's decline years would not show up in either the major league statistics or in the Negro League listings; they would be, for all practical purposes, invisible.

        I’m using Dr. Chaleeko’s projection at baseballthinkfactory for this list. More information on Wilson’s career, including the numbers from the second half of his career, can be found at

        http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...n/artie_wilson

        Case to Consider: WILSON, Artie

        1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

        No.

        2. Was he the best player on his team?

        Wilson was the best player on the Birmingham Black Barons during the middle of the 1940s.

        3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

        By Chaleeko’s projections, Wilson might have been the best shortstop in baseball in 1947 and 1953. His win share projections would have beaten any National League shortstop every year from 1944 through 1948, as well as in 1953, and any American League shortstop in 1953 and 1954. He was considered the best shortstop in the Negro Leagues during his peak.

        4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

        He led Birmingham to the pennant in 1944 and 1948.

        5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

        He was bouncing around the minors, but Chaleeko’s MLEs show him of being major league quality for quite a while past his mid-1940s prime.

        6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

        No.

        7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

        The following are based on Chaleeko’s MLEs.

        Career win shares, SS: Lou Boudreau 277, Joe Sewell 277, Dave Concepcion 269, Dave Bancroft 269, Stephens 265, Herman Long 265, WILSON 262, Jim Fregosi 261, Joe Tinker 258, Maury Wills 253, Dick Bartell 252. This is not BBFHOF territory.

        Top three seasons: Jim Fregosi 89, Maury Wills 87, Rico Petrocelli 87, Johnny Pesky 87, Eddie Joost 87, Phil Rizzuto 86, Pee Wee Reese 85, Joe Sewell 84, Dave Bancroft 84, WILSON 83, Herman Long 83, Joe Tinker 76, Art Fletcher 76. Wilson is below the cutoff area.

        Peak five consecutive seasons: Lou Boudreau 135, Jim Fregosi 135, Pee Wee Reese 134, Alan Trammell 132, WILSON 131, Barry Larkin 130, Johnny Pesky 130, Vern Stephens 129, Maury Wills 128, Eddie Joost 126, Joe Sewell 125, Rico Petrocelli 125, Ozzie Smith 123. This is very good company for Wilson.

        8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

        The information to answer this question is lacking.

        9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

        It’s hard to tell. Wilson’s cup of coffee with the Giants in 1951 could be explained by plain bad luck.

        10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

        No. I would consider Perucho Cepeda a better choice.

        11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

        His 1947 season projects to 29 win shares, which is close to being an MVP-type season; Chaleeko’s projection methods tends to smooth out a player’s career, so he might have been worth 30+ win shares that season had he been a major leaguer. But 29 WS is Wilson’s top season by the projection.

        12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

        He had seven All-Star-type seasons, which is a little low for a position player.

        13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

        During his peak, yes.

        14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

        In 1948, with Birmingham, he was the last player to have a .400 batting average while playing with a top professional league in North America.

        15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

        Yes.

        CONCLUSION: I don’t see Wilson as worthy of the BBFHOF. However, if you consider Vern Stephens and Joe Sewell as deserving of Hall of Fame honors, and if you consider Dr. Chaleeko’s method valid, I don’t see how you could keep Wilson out of your queue.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #34
          Here's another fine workup by AG2004:
          Originally posted by AG2004
          Marvin Williams is another player in a position similar to Artie Wilson. Williams did get a major league tryout - in 1945, when the Boston Red Sox, reacting to pressure from local civil rights leaders, looked at him, Sam Jethroe, and Jackie Robinson. Boston, of course, had no intention of signing any of them. Williams would then miss 1946 and 1947 due to military service. I couldn’t find any record of his receiving a major league tryout later.

          The cases of Wilson and Williams raise an interesting issue. For Negro Leaguers of their era, many of whom didn’t receive fair trials with the major leagues once integration got underway, how much credit should they receive for minor league performances in the second half of their career? I see the issue as academic in Marvin Williams’ case – I wouldn’t put a white player who matched Dr. Chaleeko’s projections of Williams’ record in the BBFHOF anyway – but there are some voters for whom the issue might make a difference in this case, or in Wilson’s case.

          Case to Consider: WILLIAMS, Marvin

          1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

          No.

          2. Was he the best player on his team?

          He might have been the best player on the Philadelphia Stars in the mid-1940s.

          3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

          Chaleeko’s win share projections indicate Williams as better than the top National League 2B in 1944, 1945, 1948, and 1955. But he would never have been baseball’s best 2B.

          4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

          No.

          5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

          According to Chaleeko’s projections, Williams was able to play at a major-league level through at least 1959, even if he was bouncing around the minors.

          6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

          No.

          7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

          We’re comparing Dr. Chaleeko’s projections for Williams with the win share numbers of MLB 2B here.

          Career win shares, 2B: Bobby Grich 329, WILLIAMS 316 (with service credit), Willie Randolph 312, Bid McPhee 305, Nellie Fox 304, Billy Herman 298 (plus war credit), Larry Doyle 289, Bobby Doerr 281 (plus war credit). This is a realm of BBFHOF members and vote-getters.

          Best three seasons: Bobby Doerr 81, Tony Lazzeri 81, Dick McAuliffe 81, Jim Gilliam 81, Lou Whitaker 80, Buddy Myer 80, Steve Sax 79, Davey Lopes 78, Red Schoendienst 78, Willie Randolph 77, WILLIAMS 76, Gil McDougald 75, Danny Murphy 75, Del Pratt 75, Lonnie Frey 74, Jimmy Williams 74, Bill Doran 74, Pete Runnels 74, Tom Daly 73, Miller Huggins 72. This is not HOF territory.

          Five consecutive seasons: Bobby Avila 124, Lonnie Frey 121, Dick McAuliffe 119, Davey Lopes 118, WILLIAMS 118, Johnny Evers 117, Lou Whitaker 116, Gil McDougald 116, Tony Lazzeri 115, Buddy Myer 115, Willie Randolph 114, Eddie Stanky 113. This is not BBFHOF territory, either.

          8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

          We don’t have any information for this question.

          9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

          No.

          10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

          No.

          11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

          Williams never had a season which was worth 30+ win shares.

          12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

          By Chaleeko’s projections, Williams had nine seasons that project to 20+ win shares. That’s good for a position player.

          13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

          No. Chaleeko projects Williams as having just one season with 25 or more win shares over 154 games.

          14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

          Other than the 1945 tryout, no.

          15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

          As far as I know.

          CONCLUSION: Even if we don’t discount the fact that Williams never did get that major league tryout, Chaleeko’s projections indicate that Williams has a worse case than Lou Whitaker. Whitaker, for me, is borderline. The fact that Williams would have had just one season with 25+ win shares reinforces my decision that Williams doesn’t belong in the BBFHOF.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #35
            The Greatest First Baseman of His (possibly All) Time

            Don't know how current this site is, but was scouting the net and found it. My grandfather is David Showboat Thomas. Many know that emphezema caused him to leave the game. Many do not know, and I have the proof, that it was my grandfather who was first to go to the majors' for training, but had to quit because of his illness. 'This' is what resulted in his not being the first afro-american to "play" in a major league game (opening the way for Robinson), but he was indeed the first afro-american to be "sent to" the majors.

            A common blog around the web is that this was some racial publicity stunt. Photos and newsclippings show otherwise. His health, developing emphezema during training, was his nemesis. It is not my desire to mar or diminish Robinson's legacy in any way. But, it is past time that Boat, as we call him, received a Hall of Fame recognition. Thanks.

            Comment


            • #36
              Showboat Thomas

              Here is a short bio on David Showboat Thomas which I got from Pitchblackbaseball.com.

              "As the nickname suggests, Dave Thomas was a fancy-fielding first baseman. He was regarded by some as the best fielding first baseman the Negro Leagues ever produced. He covered tons of ground and ate up everything in his general direction. Newspapers desribed him as "loose-jointed" because of his athleticism around first base.

              Thomas was one of the many Negro League stars to come out of Mobile, Alabama (Double Duty and Alec Radcliffe, Hank Aaron, Satchel Paige, Bobbie Robinson).

              Showboat was not a home run hitter but usually hit in the second or third slot and always hit well in the clutch

              Thomas played with a Negro League All-Star team that won the Denver Post Tournament in 1937, the top semipro tournament in the country. He batted .355 in the 8 games.

              Four years later, Thomas was player-manager for the Ethiopian Clowns and he again led his team to victory. The Clowns were down by four runs in the 9th, then scored 6 runs to win the game and tournament. Thomas made the All-Tourney All-Star team and won a wrist watch despite batting only .242. His incredible play in the field, and a well-timed home run proved every so valuable."

              There's more info if you want to read it entirely, here is the link;

              http://www.pitchblackbaseball.com/nlomshowboat.html

              Comment


              • #37
                bump.... for this interesting and valuable info

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