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MVP, Not Best on Team

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  • MVP, Not Best on Team

    Can you name all the players who won the MVP, but were not the best on their team according to WAR? Pitchers included. Bonus if you can name who the better players were. No cheating.

    Correct answers:

    Justin Morneau 2006
    Juan Gonzalez 1996 and 1998
    Lou Gehrig 1927
    Roger Peckinpaugh 1925
    Jeff Kent 2000
    Jimmy Rollins 2007
    Mickey Cochrane 1934
    Yogi Berra 1954 and 1955
    Roger Maris 1961
    Mo Vaughn 1995
    George Bell 1987
    Andre Dawson 1987
    Don Mattingly 1985
    Willie Hernandez 1984
    Denny McLain 1968
    Jeff Burroughs 1974
    Rollie Fingers 1981
    Dennis Eckersley 1992
    Jim Konstanty 1950
    Miguel Tejada 2002
    Ichiro Suzuki 2001
    Terry Pendleton 1991
    Kevin Mitchell 1989
    Johnny Bench 1972
    Steve Garvey 1974
    Boog Powell 1970
    Roy Campanella 1951, 1953, and 1955
    Last edited by AstrosFan; 01-31-2012, 08:45 AM.
    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

    - Alvin Dark

  • #2
    There are more than I realized, so this might take a while.
    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

    - Alvin Dark

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm sure Justin Morneau in 2006 has to be one. I'd wager Joe Mauer, Johan Santana, and perhaps even Joe Nathan were more valuable than him.

      Perhaps Juan Gonzalez in 1996 and 1998 might qualify. It wouldn't surprise me if Ivan Rodriguez out-WARed him either of those years.

      Lou Gehrig in 1927 was only slightly behind Babe Ruth, if I'm not mistaken.

      Maybe Roger Peckinpaugh in 1925? Was Walter Johnson ahead of him?

      Dick Groat in 1960 is probably on this list too. I'd bet at least one of the pitchers on that team, like Vern Law, Harvey Haddix or Bob Friend, was better. Perhaps Roberto Clemente was better too.
      Baseball Junk Drawer

      Comment


      • #4
        Jeff Kent and Jimmy Rollins immediately come to mind.
        My top 10 players:

        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Ty Cobb
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Willie Mays
        6. Alex Rodriguez
        7. Hank Aaron
        8. Honus Wagner
        9. Lou Gehrig
        10. Mickey Mantle

        Comment


        • #5
          And of course Michey Cochrane in 1934, who was the sixth best player on the Tigers according to WAR.

          I'm sure Mantle beat out Berra and Maris at least a couple of times.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

          Comment


          • #6
            Zoile Versalles The Minnesotta Twin who won it in the 60's would probaly be one.
            "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

            "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

            Comment


            • #7
              Maybe Hank Sauer & Joe Gordon?
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

              Comment


              • #8
                Mo Vaughn in 1995?

                Comment


                • #9
                  George Bell and Andre Dawson in 1987?

                  Mattingly in 1985?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Willie Hernandez, 1984. It's hard to accumulate much WAR in under 100 innings pitched.

                    Denny McLain, 1968 (I think Freehan was actually more valuable that year).

                    Somebody on the Rangers must have been better than Jeff Burroughs - 1974?

                    Rollie Fingers won an MVP for about 50 innings of work in 1981. Maybe Yount, Oglivie, Molitor, or Cooper were better?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      to finish up the roll call of relievers: Eck, he did win an MVP in '92, and Konstanty in 1950.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                        I'm sure Justin Morneau in 2006 has to be one. I'd wager Joe Mauer, Johan Santana, and perhaps even Joe Nathan were more valuable than him.

                        Perhaps Juan Gonzalez in 1996 and 1998 might qualify. It wouldn't surprise me if Ivan Rodriguez out-WARed him either of those years.

                        Lou Gehrig in 1927 was only slightly behind Babe Ruth, if I'm not mistaken.

                        Maybe Roger Peckinpaugh in 1925? Was Walter Johnson ahead of him?

                        Dick Groat in 1960 is probably on this list too. I'd bet at least one of the pitchers on that team, like Vern Law, Harvey Haddix or Bob Friend, was better. Perhaps Roberto Clemente was better too.
                        Joe Mauer and Johan Santana tied for the 2006 Twins lead. Juan Gone had five ahead in 1996, with pitcher Ken Hill leading. Ivan Rodriguez topped him in 1998. Ruth over Gehrig is correct. Peckinpaugh had seven ahead of him, and one tied. Goose Goslin was the leader. Stan Coveleski, not Johnson, was the top pitcher. But Dick Groat was the 1960 Pirates champ.

                        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                        Jeff Kent and Jimmy Rollins immediately come to mind.
                        Kent trailed Barry Bonds and Rollins, Chase Utley.

                        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                        And of course Michey Cochrane in 1934, who was the sixth best player on the Tigers according to WAR.

                        I'm sure Mantle beat out Berra and Maris at least a couple of times.
                        Charlie Gehringer towered over the other Tigers in 1934. Mantle topped Berra in 1954 and 1955, and Maris in 1961, but the two led in 1951 and 1960.

                        Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
                        Zoile Versalles The Minnesotta Twin who won it in the 60's would probaly be one.
                        Versalles ruled the 1965 Twins.

                        Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                        Maybe Hank Sauer & Joe Gordon?
                        Double Whiff. Both led.

                        Originally posted by Brooklyn View Post
                        Mo Vaughn in 1995?
                        John Valentin topped the second best player, Tim Wakefield, by 3.9 WAR, and Vaughn by 4.3

                        Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                        George Bell and Andre Dawson in 1987?

                        Mattingly in 1985?
                        Jimmy Key led the 1987 Blue Jays. Rick Sutcliffe topped the Cubs. Nobody was close to Rickey Henderson on the 1985 Yankees.

                        Originally posted by Gee Walker View Post
                        Willie Hernandez, 1984. It's hard to accumulate much WAR in under 100 innings pitched.

                        Denny McLain, 1968 (I think Freehan was actually more valuable that year).

                        Somebody on the Rangers must have been better than Jeff Burroughs - 1974?

                        Rollie Fingers won an MVP for about 50 innings of work in 1981. Maybe Yount, Oglivie, Molitor, or Cooper were better?
                        Alan Trammell led the 1984 Tigers. Bill Freehan topped the 1968 Tigers. Fergie Jenkins led the 1974 Rangers with a 4 WAR lead over second place Burroughs. Cooper and Yount tied for the 1981 Brewers lead. Fingers, to his credit, placed third, and crushed the other pitchers.

                        Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                        to finish up the roll call of relievers: Eck, he did win an MVP in '92, and Konstanty in 1950.
                        Mark McGwire topped the 1992 A's, and Robin Roberts the 1950 Phillies.
                        Last edited by AstrosFan; 01-30-2012, 03:30 PM.
                        "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                        - Alvin Dark

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A few more...

                          Miguel Tejada 2002 (Zito)
                          Ichiro 2001 (Boone)
                          Terry Pendleton 1991 (Glavine)
                          Kevin Mitchell 1989 (Clark)
                          Johnny Bench 1970 (Perez)
                          Johnny Bench 1972 (Morgan)
                          Steve Garvey 1974 (Wynn)
                          Boog Powell 1970 (Palmer)
                          Campanella 1955 (Snider)
                          Campanella 1953 (Snider)
                          Campanella 1951 (Robinson)
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Giambi Juice just beat me on Campanella/Snider. Snider was ahead in WAR both years. Interestingly, Snider was robbed of winning the 1955 MVP award by apparent voter error, which was never challenged or corrected. I've forgotten the exact votes and am not about to look it up now, but Campanella won the MVP award by about 3 points over Snider. But, on one ballot Campanella was listed twice and Snider was not listed at all. The BBWA took the higher vote for Campanella and ignored the other. It's pretty clear that Snider was intended to get one or the other of those votes, and, if he had gotten even the lower one he would have won the award. As far as I know the BBWA never even contacted the voter in question.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                              A few more...

                              Miguel Tejada 2002 (Zito)
                              Ichiro 2001 (Boone)
                              Terry Pendleton 1991 (Glavine)
                              Kevin Mitchell 1989 (Clark)
                              Johnny Bench 1970 (Perez)
                              Johnny Bench 1972 (Morgan)
                              Steve Garvey 1974 (Wynn)
                              Boog Powell 1970 (Palmer)
                              Campanella 1955 (Snider)
                              Campanella 1953 (Snider)
                              Campanella 1951 (Robinson)

                              Tim Hudson and Zito beat Tejada. Hudson led the team.
                              Boone over Ichiro is correct.
                              Pendleton destroyed the position players, but lost to Glavine.
                              Clark had an easy edge over Mitchell.
                              Morgan beat Bench.
                              Perez led the 1970 Reds.
                              Wynn trounced Garvey, who finished fourth on the team.
                              Palmer topped Powell
                              Campanella trailed in every season mentioned.
                              Last edited by AstrosFan; 01-31-2012, 08:46 AM.
                              "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                              - Alvin Dark

                              Comment

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