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Francoeur gets traded to the Mets for Ryan Church

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  • #31
    majorleads, let's not let the numbers get in the way:

    Situational hitting:
    Francouer 2008
    RISP: .276 OBP (Awful)

    Francoeur 2009:
    RISP: .291 OBP (very, very bad)

    Church 2008
    RISP: .394 OBP (excellent)

    Church 2009
    RISP: .325 OBP (fair, BUT he's played half his games at Citi and for a manager who despised him)

    The Braves got the better of the deal....by far.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by majorleads View Post
      No, it's just I cannot believe all of this love Ryan Church has been getting. Yesterday's ball game is more like what you'll be seeing from him. Leaving LOTS of runners on base.

      As for Francoeur, I already know he sucks so I'm not expecting anything when he steps to the plate. Church does just enough where you think he will come through in a big spot, but the more you see him the more you realize he never gets that big hit.

      Oh and he looked his usual wobbly self in the OF yesterday. Didn't see today's game but I'm sure he must have tripped over himself at some point in the game.
      I don't think anyone said Church was the greatest player ever but a combo of Diaz and Church is far better then the current Francoeur.
      Extend Prado!!!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by PureBaseballFan View Post
        I don't think anyone said Church was the greatest player ever but a combo of Diaz and Church is far better then the current Francoeur.
        This is what you seem to be missing here, majorleads. The point of the trade was not to obtain Church, but to get rid of Francoeur.
        46 wins to match last year's total

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        • #34
          Originally posted by majorleads View Post
          No, it's just I cannot believe all of this love Ryan Church has been getting. Yesterday's ball game is more like what you'll be seeing from him. Leaving LOTS of runners on base.
          See my above post. Your perception just might be wrong. Church is actually pretty good with runners on base, especially when in scoring position.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Rob R View Post
            majorleads, let's not let the numbers get in the way:

            Situational hitting:
            Francouer 2008
            RISP: .276 OBP (Awful)

            Francoeur 2009:
            RISP: .291 OBP (very, very bad)

            Church 2008
            RISP: .394 OBP (excellent)

            Church 2009
            RISP: .325 OBP (fair, BUT he's played half his games at Citi and for a manager who despised him)

            The Braves got the better of the deal....by far.
            Again with this OBP stat. This is the National League and in the NL your middle of the order guys get paid to DRIVE IN RUNS, not walk. A walk does no good when you have crappy hitters following you in the lineup.


            Wait, I just realized you posted their OBP with RISP? Are you serious? That tells us absolutely nothing. The name of the game for his spot in the lineup is driving the ball and driving in runs, not walking or hitting meaningless base to base singles that don't knock in runs.


            EDIT:Should also say you're applying American League tactics to the NL. The AL has good hitters throughout so a walk has more value for a middle of the order guy.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
              This is what you seem to be missing here, majorleads. The point of the trade was not to obtain Church, but to get rid of Francoeur.
              Right, I'm really directing this towards clueless Mets fans and that cute Yankee dog who is posting here. I feel the same way about Church, good riddance.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by majorleads View Post
                Again with this OBP stat. This is the National League and in the NL your middle of the order guys get paid to DRIVE IN RUNS, not walk. A walk does no good when you have crappy hitters following you in the lineup.


                Wait, I just realized you posted their OBP with RISP? Are you serious? That tells us absolutely nothing. The name of the game for his spot in the lineup is driving the ball and driving in runs, not walking or hitting meaningless base to base singles that don't knock in runs.


                EDIT:Should also say you're applying American League tactics to the NL. The AL has good hitters throughout so a walk has more value for a middle of the order guy.
                Again, look at the stats before assuming what Church did. Let's take 2008, a full season for example. In 80 AB's, with RISP, Church drove in 31 RBI, which is excellent, which disproves your perception of Church not driving runs in. I'm not sure how this is any different in the AL or NL - and RBI is an RBI and OBP is OBP regardless of the league. Plus, my comparison is a fair one, since both Church and Francoeur both played in the NL.

                As for overall OBP comparing Church to Francoeur, it's no contest. Church's OBP is much better. Then you mention walks. Are you aware that Francouer drew MORE walks than Church in a full season, 2008, YET his OBP was a considerable .52 points lower? If that doesn't show how much better and productive Church is than Francoeur, I don't know what to tell you. Again, you need to check the numbers before you post.

                Church is a lot better than you think. And Francoeur probably a lot worse. Don't try to make yourself feel better about this trade without looking at the facts.
                Last edited by Rob R; 07-12-2009, 08:24 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Rob R View Post
                  Again, look at the stats before assuming what Church did. Let's take 2008, a full season for example. In 80 AB's, with RISP, Church drove in 31 RBI, which is excellent, which disproves your perception of Church not driving runs in. I'm not sure how this is any different in the AL or NL - and RBI is an RBI and OBP is OBP regardless of the league. Plus, my comparison is a fair one, since both Church and Francoeur both played in the NL.

                  As for overall OBP comparing Church to Francoeur, it's no contest. Church's OBP is much better. Then you mention walks. Are you aware that Francouer drew MORE walks than Church in a full season, 2008, YET his OBP was a considerable .52 points lower? If that doesn't show how much better and productive Church is than Francoeur, I don't know what to tell you. Again, you need to check the numbers before you post.

                  Church is a lot better than you think. And Francoeur probably a lot worse. Don't try to make yourself feel better about this trade without looking at the facts.
                  Look at Church's CAREER clutch numbers, not just a small sample from the beginning of last season when he knocked in those 31 runs. This season he's been terrible. If we're going to take small sample sizes look what Francouer did during his 2 good seasons. Much better than Church and over a longer period.

                  Also Francoeur is only 25 years old and has had some success. Are you ready to give up on Joba as a pitcher because he doesn't look anywhere near the dominant pitcher he did when he first came up? No. Anything is possible with Francoeur because he is young.


                  And I'm not even arguing that Francoeur is better, I don't care if he is or if he isn't because I wanted Church off this team ASAP. We're done in 09 anyway so what the heck is the big deal? We both know Church was finished with the Mets. And who were we going to get for an angry (also possibly anti-semitic ) right fielder with 2 hr's and 22 rbi's? Philip Hughes?


                  *This is funny that our debate has spilled into this forum. Braves fans hate Mets fans but they have no idea how much the level of hate is between Met and Yankee fans. (All in good fun though, even though one might get killed wearing a Mets jersey in Yankee Stadium)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by majorleads View Post
                    Look at Church's CAREER clutch numbers, not just a small sample from the beginning of last season when he knocked in those 31 runs. This season he's been terrible. If we're going to take small sample sizes look what Francouer did during his 2 good seasons. Much better than Church and over a longer period.

                    Also Francoeur is only 25 years old and has had some success. Are you ready to give up on Joba as a pitcher because he doesn't look anywhere near the dominant pitcher he did when he first came up? No. Anything is possible with Francoeur because he is young.


                    And I'm not even arguing that Francoeur is better, I don't care if he is or if he isn't because I wanted Church off this team ASAP. We're done in 09 anyway so what the heck is the big deal? We both know Church was finished with the Mets. And who were we going to get for an angry (also possibly anti-semitic ) right fielder with 2 hr's and 22 rbi's? Philip Hughes?


                    *This is funny that our debate has spilled into this forum. Braves fans hate Mets fans but they have no idea how much the level of hate is between Met and Yankee fans. (All in good fun though, even though one might get killed wearing a Mets jersey in Yankee Stadium)
                    Wow, I just googled and read some interesting things about Church and and anti-semitism. I'm not a Jew, but now I hope he fails in life, let alone baseball. Enough stat-finding from me on his behalf.

                    And yeah, pretty funny that yet another Met/Yankee fan disagreement spilled over here, though it wasn't my intent!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Okay, this is the quote in question:

                      "I said, like, Jewish people, they don't believe in Jesus. Does that mean they're doomed? Jon nodded, like, that's what it meant. My ex-girlfriend! I was like, man, if they only knew. Other religions don't know any better. It's up to us to spread the word,"
                      This is an offensive remark to Jewish people, but it displays a basic idea in Protestant Christianity: if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (the Messiah), you're going to Hell.

                      I'm not a Catholic, so I'm not sure how Catholicism views it, but I can attest to that. Church isn't an anti-Semite for saying this. I believe being anti-Semitic has to do more with violence, racism and bigotry, not basic religious disagreements.

                      Just had to say it.
                      46 wins to match last year's total

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                      • #41
                        16 RBI for Francoeur in 14 games as a Met.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
                          16 RBI for Francoeur in 14 games as a Met.
                          Yup, this is what argued about all along and it's why Church sucks. Church is a middle of the order guy who for some reason does not drive in runs. It seems like Francoeur has driven in runs every game since becoming a Met. And Francoeur has been great in the clubhouse too.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by majorleads View Post
                            Yup, this is what argued about all along and it's why Church sucks. Church is a middle of the order guy who for some reason does not drive in runs. It seems like Francoeur has driven in runs every game since becoming a Met. And Francoeur has been great in the clubhouse too.
                            The thing is Church shouldn't have been counted on to be a middle of the order hitter. The Braves don't mind what he does considering he is an 8th hole hitter for them.

                            I give credit to Francoeur for his hot start after the trade but it's gonna take more then 15 good games to make me think he is suddenly turning it around. He had good hotstreaks for the Braves but the problem was they wouldn't last for long and his cold streaks usually lasted longer and did more harm the his hotstreaks did good.
                            Extend Prado!!!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by majorleads View Post
                              Yup, this is what argued about all along and it's why Church sucks. Church is a middle of the order guy who for some reason does not drive in runs. It seems like Francoeur has driven in runs every game since becoming a Met. And Francoeur has been great in the clubhouse too.
                              Oh, just you wait. I looked at his stats the other day, and his rates are remarkably similar to his rookie year, where scouts didn't have much on him. This either tells me that he could get better, or that it's his ceiling. Quite frankly, I'm betting on the latter.
                              46 wins to match last year's total

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Church is a free agent after the season though, Francoeur I believe was not

                                They made the trade just to get Frenchy out so they can prepare to bring Jason Heyward in
                                The Cardboard Fan
                                My Bucket - w/ Select Trade Scans

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