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  • #16
    Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
    I dont see how anyone expects Cedeno to get a fair chunk of playing time at either MI spot with Lugo/Neifi/Hairston all on the roster.

    We all know Dusty loves the vets, and with 3 MI's as his disposal, Cedeno gets left out.




    I dont see Lugo to be a defensive upgrade over Hairston, Niefi or Cedeno. I dont see Lugo to be an offensive upgrade over Walker or Cedeno, and possibly Hairston. So I dont see Lugo as an upgrade to the team. Factor in the unreasonable price tag the D-Rays slap on everybody, and Lugo looks even less attractive.
    A couple things I think you and a lot of people here are mistaken about...

    1) Dusty has no problem playing rookies. I'll name you plenty of young players that got plenty of time under DudeMan. It's a common misconception that Dusty doesn't like to play the youngins: Zambrano(22), Prior(22), CPat(23), Juan Cruz(24), Sergio Mitre (23), Francis Beltran(24), Jon Leicester (25), Michael Wuertz(25), Jerome Williams(23), Cliff Bartosh(24), Rich Hill(24), Novoa(25), Hee Sop Choi(22). ALL of these players were either 2nd yr or 3rd players or so when DudeMan got a hold of them. They got ample playing time, and some too much (ie Leicester, CPat, Mitre, Bartosh). Dusty plays young players, and often puts them into situations where they will succeed, and builds their confidence. Choi was getting plenty of PT before the concussion.

    2)Cedeno does not get left out. Baker really loves Cedeno, and has said so himself. Lugo is definetly better than Neifi, and in my opinion is a faster version of Hairston. Lugo doesn't have to be a better offensive option than Hairston or Cedeno. The addition of Lugo would make this team stronger, and would mean less PT for Neifi. Your starting SS/2B would be Cedeno & Lugo.
    Witnessing a team doing a complete 180 since the 2003 playoffs...

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Nverve1
      A couple things I think you and a lot of people here are mistaken about...

      1) Dusty has no problem playing rookies. I'll name you plenty of young players that got plenty of time under DudeMan. It's a common misconception that Dusty doesn't like to play the youngins: Zambrano(22), Prior(22), CPat(23), Juan Cruz(24), Sergio Mitre (23), Francis Beltran(24), Jon Leicester (25), Michael Wuertz(25), Jerome Williams(23), Cliff Bartosh(24), Rich Hill(24), Novoa(25), Hee Sop Choi(22). ALL of these players were either 2nd yr or 3rd players or so when DudeMan got a hold of them. They got ample playing time, and some too much (ie Leicester, CPat, Mitre, Bartosh). Dusty plays young players, and often puts them into situations where they will succeed, and builds their confidence. Choi was getting plenty of PT before the concussion.

      2)Cedeno does not get left out. Baker really loves Cedeno, and has said so himself. Lugo is definetly better than Neifi, and in my opinion is a faster version of Hairston. Lugo doesn't have to be a better offensive option than Hairston or Cedeno. The addition of Lugo would make this team stronger, and would mean less PT for Neifi. Your starting SS/2B would be Cedeno & Lugo.

      1) Aside from Prior and Zambrano, which are no brainers, the numbers dont back you up. Yes, he used those young arms, but not nearly as much as you think he did. And he always found a way to get Remlinger in the action.

      most used bullpen pitchers in '03 :
      Farns - 76.3 IP
      Remlinger - 69.0
      Borowski - 68.3
      Alfonseca - 66.3
      Guthrie - 42.7

      in 04 :
      Latroy - 82.0
      Farns - 66.7
      Mercker - 53.0
      Leicester - 41.7
      Remilnger - 36.7

      in 05:
      Dempster - 92.0
      Weurtz - 75.7
      Novoa - 44.7
      Ohman - 43.3
      Remlinger - 33.0

      So he did use some younger guys last season, but thats more a product of injury and the fact that Hendry didnt give him any other arms to use.


      As for Hill, Mitre, and Cruz, again thats a product of injuries to the starters and not his personal desires. Rusch, a veteran, has started 35 games in '04 and '05. those other 3 combined to start 28 since '03.


      If Baker had ANY sense whatsoever, he would have abandoned the Corey-as-a-leadoff-hitter experiment way before he actually did. Look up Corey's 3-year splits and youll find he had a .249/.301 AVG/OBP in the leadoff spot under Dusty. How exactly is that putting him in a spot where he can succeed?

      Big Choi was getting some solid PT before that concussion, and is one of the rare instances of Baker playing a young guy successfully. But he is the exception and not the rule.



      2) Baker has also said he loves Neifi, even went as far to say that Neifi "did a hell of a job for us last year", referring to 2005. So which do you believe? Given the track record, its hard to think that Cedeno wont start growing roots on the bench. The only thing that will lead to less playing time for Neifi is if he is no longer on the team or is on the DL.

      Sorry, I dont have a link for that quote, I heard him say it on an interview he did on the Score.
      Last edited by Slightly Sarcastic; 01-12-2006, 10:04 AM.
      Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

      Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

      Comment


      • #18
        dusty was praising cedeno this morning on WGN (Spike O'dell show) though he did say Neifi did a good job for the team last year. for what he was originally brought in to do, neifi did pretty well. But thats only if you recall that he was only supposed to be a backup and was never signed to be an everyday player.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
          1) Aside from Prior and Zambrano, which are no brainers, the numbers dont back you up. Yes, he used those young arms, but not nearly as much as you think he did. And he always found a way to get Remlinger in the action.

          most used bullpen pitchers in '03 :
          Farns - 76.3 IP
          Remlinger - 69.0
          Borowski - 68.3
          Alfonseca - 66.3
          Guthrie - 42.7

          in 04 :
          Latroy - 82.0
          Farns - 66.7
          Mercker - 53.0
          Leicester - 41.7
          Remilnger - 36.7

          in 05:
          Dempster - 92.0
          Weurtz - 75.7
          Novoa - 44.7
          Ohman - 43.3
          Remlinger - 33.0

          So he did use some younger guys last season, but thats more a product of injury and the fact that Hendry didnt give him any other arms to use.


          As for Hill, Mitre, and Cruz, again thats a product of injuries to the starters and not his personal desires. Rusch, a veteran, has started 35 games in '04 and '05. those other 3 combined to start 28 since '03.


          If Baker had ANY sense whatsoever, he would have abandoned the Corey-as-a-leadoff-hitter experiment way before he actually did. Look up Corey's 3-year splits and youll find he had a .249/.301 AVG/OBP in the leadoff spot under Dusty. How exactly is that putting him in a spot where he can succeed?

          Big Choi was getting some solid PT before that concussion, and is one of the rare instances of Baker playing a young guy successfully. But he is the exception and not the rule.



          2) Baker has also said he loves Neifi, even went as far to say that Neifi "did a hell of a job for us last year", referring to 2005. So which do you believe? Given the track record, its hard to think that Cedeno wont start growing roots on the bench. The only thing that will lead to less playing time for Neifi is if he is no longer on the team or is on the DL.

          Sorry, I dont have a link for that quote, I heard him say it on an interview he did on the Score.
          Zambrano was anything but a given while coming up in the minors. There were many question marks surrounding him. There's a reason why he doesn't have the big name that Wood and Prior do. He wasn't as highly regarded in throughout his progression. So no, Zambrano was not a given.

          You can't go by innings pitched for a stat as to how often or who was used more out of the bullpen. As call ups/call downs have a major part in PT. Anyway you slice it, Wuertz, Ohman, Novoa, Leicester all had some major input while in the Cubs organization under DudeMan.

          As for CPat, yes Dusty made a big mistake in playing him leadoff. But you are forgetting that he was pretty successful in that spot in 2004. So naturally DudeMan is going to give him a shot to succeed in the leadoff and to work himself out of a slump.

          Yes, I'm sure DudeMan has a hardon for Neifi. But think about what he did for the Cubs last year. .274, 9HRS and 54RBIs is very very solid numbers. What killed the Cubs with Neifi wasn't his production, but his OBP. It was horrendous. If Cedeno goes .274 9HRs and 54 RBIs but adds a mid-high .300's OBP I would be elated. Neifi was a savior last year, outside of his low OBP.
          Witnessing a team doing a complete 180 since the 2003 playoffs...

          Comment


          • #20
            OBP is production. and 4 times out of 5, the more important part of production.
            RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

            AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

            Angel of Death
            Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
            Infamous butcher,
            Angel of Death

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ravenlord
              OBP is production. and 4 times out of 5, the more important part of production.
              So you wouldn't want the 2003 version of Corey Patterson? I would take him in a heartbeat in RF over Jones. OBP is great, and most important at the top of the order. But production is RBI's, not OBP. OBP is, in my opinion, being the most helpful and fundamentally sound player. It's not production. Production is to produce, you don't produce by being on base...your manufacturing. The people behind you would be producing runs by knockin you in.
              Witnessing a team doing a complete 180 since the 2003 playoffs...

              Comment


              • #22
                What killed the Cubs with Neifi wasn't his production, but his OBP. It was horrendous. If Cedeno goes .274 9HRs and 54 RBIs but adds a mid-high .300's OBP I would be elated. Neifi was a savior last year, outside of his low OBP.
                No, Dusty's stubborn ass batting Neifi at the top of the order hurt the Cubs more than Neifi actually being in the lineup hurt the Cubs.
                Yea, Neifi was a savior who kept the Cubs in the battle for 3rd-4th place.

                Dusty doesn't like playing rookies unless they're significantly outperforming the veteran alternative. Zambrano had a 3.11 ERA in 2003, that's a no-brainer. Who was Dusty's other option over Z in 2003?
                Who was his option over Prior? Corey?
                Dusty has only played the young guys you mentioned because it's the roster he was given. Dusty didn't call these guys up, and when young guys are what you have, young guys are what you use. Hill & Mitre were only starting because of injuries. Williams & Rusch were the only other options... Williams was the best of the 4 and Rusch pitched far more than Hill & Mitre, even when he struggled. Leicester had 1 start last year and pitched decent out of the pen in limited time in 2004, Wuertz and Bartosh were used because Dusty had no other choice unless he wanted to handcuff himself and only use part of the bullpen.
                Dusty chose Estes over Cruz. Choi is the only guy you listed who MIGHT fit your claim that Dusty "has no problem playing youngsters".

                As for CPat, yes Dusty made a big mistake in playing him leadoff. But you are forgetting that he was pretty successful in that spot in 2004. So naturally DudeMan is going to give him a shot to succeed in the leadoff and to work himself out of a slump.
                What? A .261 AVG/.317 OBP isn't successful when Corey hit .319/.389 in the 7 hole that year.
                Corey had no business at all leading off, especially when Walker does a very good job in that role. Walker hit .294/.370 leading off in '04 but he wasn't fast enough... Dusty doesn't have a clue and likes proving how hard his head is by banging it against a wall.
                Last edited by burger eater; 01-12-2006, 12:15 PM.
                beware of the censorship police

                Comment


                • #23
                  i find you have the same irrational dislike of Lugo as most posters here had of Hairston last year...especially on defense.
                  I liked Hairston and if Walker's gone, I hope Hairston's starting at 2B and hitting behind Pierre.
                  beware of the censorship police

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nverve1
                    So you wouldn't want the 2003 version of Corey Patterson? I would take him in a heartbeat in RF over Jones. OBP is great, and most important at the top of the order. But production is RBI's, not OBP. OBP is, in my opinion, being the most helpful and fundamentally sound player. It's not production. Production is to produce, you don't produce by being on base...your manufacturing. The people behind you would be producing runs by knockin you in.
                    RBIs are almost entirely team dependent. as are individual Runs. and if your contention that about OBP vs SLG was correct, the Cubs would have been a top 3 offense in the NL last year.

                    you're also arguing semantics with yourself as far as the difference between production and manufacturing (which have the same basic meaning).

                    as far as Patterson goes, if he hits a base of his career averages, i'd start him in centerfield for the Reds next year if i could get rid of at least 40% of Griffey's contract.
                    RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

                    AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

                    Angel of Death
                    Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
                    Infamous butcher,
                    Angel of Death

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by burger eater
                      What? A .261 AVG/.317 OBP isn't successful when Corey hit .319/.389 in the 7 hole that year.
                      Corey had no business at all leading off, especially when Walker does a very good job in that role. Walker hit .294/.370 leading off in '04 but he wasn't fast enough...
                      memories of Jeremy Giambi.
                      RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

                      AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

                      Angel of Death
                      Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
                      Infamous butcher,
                      Angel of Death

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nverve1
                        Zambrano was anything but a given while coming up in the minors. There were many question marks surrounding him. There's a reason why he doesn't have the big name that Wood and Prior do. He wasn't as highly regarded in throughout his progression. So no, Zambrano was not a given.

                        You can't go by innings pitched for a stat as to how often or who was used more out of the bullpen. As call ups/call downs have a major part in PT. Anyway you slice it, Wuertz, Ohman, Novoa, Leicester all had some major input while in the Cubs organization under DudeMan.

                        As for CPat, yes Dusty made a big mistake in playing him leadoff. But you are forgetting that he was pretty successful in that spot in 2004. So naturally DudeMan is going to give him a shot to succeed in the leadoff and to work himself out of a slump.

                        Yes, I'm sure DudeMan has a hardon for Neifi. But think about what he did for the Cubs last year. .274, 9HRS and 54RBIs is very very solid numbers. What killed the Cubs with Neifi wasn't his production, but his OBP. It was horrendous. If Cedeno goes .274 9HRs and 54 RBIs but adds a mid-high .300's OBP I would be elated. Neifi was a savior last year, outside of his low OBP.

                        Zambrano certainly was a given after moving to the rotation in '02 around the ASB. As a starter that year, he put up 3.68 ERA with a .228 BAA. The question marks surrounding him were nearly, if not completely, gone by the time Dusty took over in '03, which is what we were talking about. Dusty's use of young players.




                        I have no idea what kind of stats you'd like to use to determine who was used more out of the bullpen, but IP is certainly the most rational one to use.

                        Wuertz --- 29.0 IP in '04, 75.7 in '05
                        Ohman --- 43.3 IP in '05
                        Novoa ---- 44.7 IP in '05
                        Leicester--- 41.7 IP in '04, 9.0 in '05

                        Thats not "major" input from those players, except for the '05 season. And like I just said, thats more of a product of Hendry not putting veterans in the pen and leaving Dusty no other option but to use the young arms. I have no idea how you can slice it any other way.



                        Corey was pretty successful in the leadoff spot in '04? Thats news to me. I dont know about you, but Im looking for more than a .261/.317 AVG/OBP out of my leadoff hitter.



                        Neifi was a savior??? Seriously man, I'm about to puke. He had 2 good months, and 4 horrible ones. And where Dusthead had Neifi hitting in the order, 382 AB's in either the #1 or #2 spot, his job was to get on base, which he just couldnt do. I imagine that out of ALL major league baseball players with 450 AB's, Neifi's 18 BB's put him among the worst 5 or so in the game, if not the absolute worst. Maybe as a #7/8 hitter he would have been servicable, but as a top of the order hitter he is a major detriment to the team.



                        OK, curiousity got the best of me and i went ahead and looked that stat up. In the National League, Neifi(18) and Corey(23) ranked #1 and #2 as far as the lowest number of walks with 450 AB's. If you add the AL into that, they ranked #4(tie) and #7(tie) worst. Great guys to have at the top of the order in front of Lee.

                        Heres the link if you want to see the numbers for yourself.

                        http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...alse&count=140
                        Last edited by Slightly Sarcastic; 01-12-2006, 03:05 PM.
                        Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                        Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
                          OK, curiousity got the best of me and i went ahead and looked that stat up. In the National League, Neifi(18) and Corey(23) ranked #1 and #2 as far as the lowest number of walks with 450 AB's. If you add the AL into that, they ranked #4(tie) and #7(tie) worst. Great guys to have at the top of the order in front of Lee.

                          Heres the link if you want to see the numbers for yourself.

                          http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...alse&count=140
                          it's better if you use BB/PA...in which case Patterson is T-136th with .048 and Perez is T-144th with .030. and FWIW, Pierre is T-126th with .057.
                          RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

                          AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

                          Angel of Death
                          Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
                          Infamous butcher,
                          Angel of Death

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            what makes you think cedeno would rot on the bench if we get lugo?...if we get lugo, they will just move ronny to 2nd...hairston wouldnt start and shouldnt start...he was a waist last year except for like 2 games....the MI combo would be lugo/cedeno with neifi off the bench...and i would also like to have lugo in chicago...speedy guy with a decent bat...pierre/lugo 1-2 punch would be pretty good in my opinion...later guys

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ravenlord
                              it's better if you use BB/PA...in which case Patterson is T-136th with .048 and Perez is T-144th with .030. and FWIW, Pierre is T-126th with .057.

                              Is that NL-only or the entire majors?


                              And at least Pierre has some talent for putting bat on ball and is able to somewhat overcome his inability to take a walk. Not that im suddenly all in favor of him, but he is at least an upgrade over what we had last season.
                              Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                              Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by trixta
                                what makes you think cedeno would rot on the bench if we get lugo?...if we get lugo, they will just move ronny to 2nd...hairston wouldnt start and shouldnt start...he was a waist last year except for like 2 games....the MI combo would be lugo/cedeno with neifi off the bench...and i would also like to have lugo in chicago...speedy guy with a decent bat...pierre/lugo 1-2 punch would be pretty good in my opinion...later guys

                                Ive already stated the reasons I think Cedeno would rot on the bench.

                                Go back and read the thread.
                                Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                                Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                                Comment

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