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Is Soriano Overrated?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cubsfan97
    Some nicer stats are on the first pitch, when it goes into play, he dominates. He has a .385 BA, .395 OBP, .717 SLG, 35 HRs and 83 XBH, and that is through 494 PA.
    How do you have a higher OBP than BA when you put the first pitch in play? You can't get a walk or HBP if you hit the first ball in play.
    Hitting is timing, pitching is upsetting timing.
    -Warren Spahn

    It's a round ball and a round bat and you gotta hit it square.
    -Pete Rose


    Good pitching always beats good hitting...and vice versa.
    -Yogi Berra

    Comment


    • #32
      In order to answer this question, I wanted look at some present stars and all time greats when it comes to offensive numbers over a career. I used the stat of RPG (or the average runs a player scored or drove in during a game). While he isn't the top of the list, he holds his own. I don't think he isn't so much overated as his is overpaid. If you are curious of the formula for RPG I used is (Runs+RBI-HR)/games.

      games runs HR RBI RRF RPG
      B Ruth 2503 2171 714 2213 3670 1.47
      T Williams 2292 1798 521 1839 3116 1.36
      Pujols 933 748 250 758 1256 1.35
      A Rodriguez 1746 1358 464 1347 2241 1.28
      M Ramirez 1817 1258 470 1516 2304 1.27
      Bonds 2860 2152 734 1930 3348 1.17
      D Jeter 1679 1277 183 860 1954 1.16
      Berkman 1060 687 225 753 1215 1.15
      H Aaron 3298 2174 755 2297 3716 1.13
      Ortiz 1043 622 231 763 1154 1.11
      Sosa 2240 1422 588 1575 2409 1.08
      M Mcgwire 1874 1167 583 1414 1998 1.07
      Soriano 961 624 208 560 976 1.02
      R Henderson 3081 2295 297 1115 3113 1.01
      T Gwynn 2440 1383 135 1138 2386 0.98
      R Sanberg 2164 1318 282 1061 2097 0.97
      A Ramirez 1037 517 196 669 990 0.95
      D. Lee 1235 671 216 656 1111 0.90

      RRF = Runs responsible for
      RPG = Runs per game

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by cpomeroy
        In order to answer this question, I wanted look at some present stars and all time greats when it comes to offensive numbers over a career. I used the stat of RPG (or the average runs a player scored or drove in during a game). While he isn't the top of the list, he holds his own. I don't think he isn't so much overated as his is overpaid. If you are curious of the formula for RPG I used is (Runs+RBI-HR)/games.
        Seems to me that stat is highly dependent on the quality of players around him, to provide him with RBI chances or to drive him in.
        Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

        Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
          If you construct the top 4 spots in the lineup like this : Murton/Lee/Soriano/Aramis, I bet you'd find that combination scores ALOT more runs than Soriano/DeRosa/Lee/Aramis.
          Well Pinella's floating a lineup of Soriano/Jones/Lee/Ramirez/Floyd/Barrett/DeRosa/Izturis out there right now. If Jones is still here to start the season and in CF, Lou's talking about batting him 2nd or 5th, with Floyd batting 5th if Jacque bats at the top of the order.
          Last edited by Bob Sacamento; 02-20-2007, 10:32 PM.
          What a Batted Ball is Worth (in terms of a run):
          Line Drive: .356
          HBP: .342
          Non-Intentional Walk: .315
          Intentional Walk: .176
          Outfield Fly: .035
          Groundball: -.101
          Bunts: -.103
          Infield Fly: -.243
          Strikeout: -.287
          It's now officially Doctor Bob Sacamento, D.C., C.S.C.S., and working on my D.A.B.C.O. (Diplomate American Board of Chiropractic Orthopedics)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bob Sacamento
            Well Pinella's floating a lineup of Soriano/Jones/Lee/Ramirez/Floyd/Barrett/DeRosa/Izturis out there right now. If Jones is still here to start the season, Lou's talking about batting him 2nd or 5th, with Floyd batting 5th if Jacque bats at the top of the order. It's looking like 1/3/4/6/8 in the lineup are already being penciled in for Opening Day.
            The good news in that lineup : Izturis and DeRosa are nowhere near the #2 spot.

            The bad news in that lineup : Murton isn't in the #2 spot, or anywhere to be seen.
            Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

            Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by cpomeroy
              If you are curious of the formula for RPG I used is (Runs+RBI-HR)/games.
              Thats not a very good formula to figure out of many runs he produces.
              Originally posted by Domenic
              The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by cubsfan1073
                It's extremely hard to teach patience and a good eye and I don't see him improving his OBP much.
                His OBP went from .309 in 2005 to .351 in 2006. I would say someone in DC was doing their job.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tearforamariner
                  His OBP went from .309 in 2005 to .351 in 2006. I would say someone in DC was doing their job.
                  On first glance it might look that way, but that's not the case at all.

                  He was the only big threat in that lineup, and got 16 IBB's because of it, (he only had 15 IBB's in his entire career before last season). There's really no way to tell how many other times he was "pitched around".

                  He didn't improve his ability to take walks, he was just in a situation where pitchers could easily pitch around him. That won't be the case here with Lee and Ramirez behind him.
                  Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                  Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
                    On first glance it might look that way, but that's not the case at all.

                    He was the only big threat in that lineup, and got 16 IBB's because of it, (he only had 15 IBB's in his entire career before last season). There's really no way to tell how many other times he was "pitched around".

                    He didn't improve his ability to take walks, he was just in a situation where pitchers could easily pitch around him. That won't be the case here with Lee and Ramirez behind him.
                    That would easily explain an increase from .325 or .330 to .351, but .309? That's a little too much for what you are talking about.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tearforamariner
                      That would easily explain an increase from .325 or .330 to .351, but .309? That's a little too much for what you are talking about.
                      Not really.
                      Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                      Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
                        Not really.
                        Haha, I love that response. It's so... uneducational. "Not really" means "I can't support my claim, but I still believe it's right so instead of making a legitimate argument, I'm going to make unsupported, two word responses".

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tearforamariner
                          Haha, I love that response. It's so... uneducational. "Not really" means "I can't support my claim, but I still believe it's right so instead of making a legitimate argument, I'm going to make unsupported, two word responses".
                          Actually, it means "my eyes hurt from looking at fantasy draft stuff for the past 4 hours, and I don't feel like crunching the numbers."


                          You're claims are equally unsupported. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to prove me wrong instead of just saying it.
                          Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                          Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic
                            Actually, it means "my eyes hurt from looking at fantasy draft stuff for the past 4 hours, and I don't feel like crunching the numbers."


                            You're claims are equally unsupported. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to prove me wrong instead of just saying it.
                            Haha, Fair enough.

                            You're talking about a 42 point increase in OBP. I have no statistical evidence that supports my claim, but 42 points to me is too high to be aided solely on being the only "big bat" in the lineup. I could be wrong. I don't think I am.


                            You make really good points, but admit that Soriano is being held by many in a lower regard than he should be.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tearforamariner
                              Haha, Fair enough.

                              You're talking about a 42 point increase in OBP. I have no statistical evidence that supports my claim, but 42 points to me is too high to be aided solely on being the only "big bat" in the lineup. I could be wrong. I don't think I am.
                              Well, 9 of those points come from BA.

                              Subtracting that from the 42 point increase in OBP, there's 33 remaining points, and he had 34 more BB's than the previous year. 16 of those were intentional, and I'd guess at least another 10-12 or so were the 'unintentional' intentional type.

                              Considering his previous career high in BB's was 38, I'll never believe that at this point in his career that he suddenly learned to work the count well enough to go from 33 BB's to 51 in one season (51 being the number of BB's not counted in the stats as intentional). It makes alot more sense to me that he was simply pitched around, since he was the only real potent bat in that lineup.



                              You make really good points, but admit that Soriano is being held by many in a lower regard than he should be.
                              I will admit no such thing.
                              Last edited by Slightly Sarcastic; 02-20-2007, 11:17 PM.
                              Jerseys hanging in my den : Santo, Jenkins, Williams, Banks, Grace, Sandberg, Dawson, Eckersley, Sutcliffe, Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Lee

                              Oddly enough, I never bought a Sosa jersey, even during his best years.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Slightly Sarcastic




                                I will admit no such thing.
                                In the past two weeks, I've heard people compare Alfonso Soriano to Neifi Perez. Surely this is not a valid comparison.

                                Comment

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