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Ok... the Protest.

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  • Ok... the Protest.

    As a Cubs fan. All I hear is "Mr. Cub...Ernie Banks. "Mr. Cub..Ernie Banks." And that's ALL I HEAR. Now, I respect Ernie, but....


    Billy Williams played one less season.
    Billy Williams did NOT hit as many homers as Banks.
    Billy Williams leads Banks in OPS+ by eleven points
    Williams has more hits than Banks.
    Williams- ok, maybe he doesn't KILL Banks, but that's a nice 16 point difference in batting average.
    Williams had more plate discipline. Taking more walks and striking out fewer times.
    Williams has an OBP of .361 to Banks .330
    Williams stole more bases
    Banks does have a better defense
    Banks does have an 8 point advantage over Williams in SLG
    It's hard to go wrong with someone with Two MVP's, more all stars, and once again, I am going against ajusted positional movement.
    WIth this- I come to conclude- Sweet Swinging Billy Williams is the REAL Mr. Cub.

  • #2
    Part of being "Mr. Cub" is popularity, and how much they're associated with the team.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxgNjMTPIs

    Comment


    • #3
      Williams isn't popular?

      Banks is so beloved, but how many of my fellow Cub fans are stat snobs (like me) and NOT silly drunks? If they look at the stats, Williams was better than Banks. And, so far, I've gotten TFAM to agree.

      Comment


      • #4
        Banks was outgoing, Williams was reserved. Mr. Cub is a public image, and I assume Cubs fans decided it would be best to bestow the title on someone who had the more gregarious public persona. The image of Ernie Banks as the cheerful, "It's a beautiful day, let's play two," man is enough to push him over the edge as the choice to represent the Cubs, since he is a legitimate contender for greatest Cub based on his playing achievements.
        "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

        - Alvin Dark

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't think it matters pointing out who is the better player or who was more popular anymore.

          Ernie Banks is Mr. Cub. It's history now, and I doubt anyone can change that.

          However, I will argue in favor of Banks.

          If you add positional value, Banks clearly comes out ahead. Plus, Banks was clearly the best player on the Cubbies through the 1950's. Williams, Santo, and Banks fought each other in the 1960's to be the best player. Clearly, this leads to Williams not being the best Cub for a substantial amount of time like Banks was.

          There is also the tenure to think about. Banks was tearing up the league as a power hitting, good fielding shortstop for almost a decade before Williams came along. One must admit this gives Banks an advantage.

          There is also the fact that Banks played his entire career with the Cubs, and Williams did not. Yes, it's true Williams was traded, but he still DID NOT end his career a Cubbie like Banks did.

          Adding in all these points, I don't believe it's possible to look at Williams as some sort of revisionist REAL "Mr. Cub", unless you throw out things like positional adjustment, which even hardcore traditionalists look at.
          AL East Champions: 1981 1982
          AL Pennant: 1982
          NL Central Champions: 2011
          NL Wild Card: 2008

          "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

          Comment


          • #6
            Not giving a "position adjustment" is one thing, but you're taking it even further; you're not considering anything besides hitting numbers. Billy Williams was a better hitter than Banks, but Banks played over 1100 games at short, while Williams would be a DH in today's game. I think even you would agree that if they had the same amount of hitting value, Banks would be the better total player. The fact that Williams was a little better with the bat doesn't automatically make him the better player.
            "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Banks played most of his career at first, and first is a power position. Williams was better with the bat.

              I mean, you treat Williams as if he were truly dreadful with the glove. He may not have the greatest FP, but this is a guy who had double-digit assists in 7 different seasons as an outfielder. He would not have been religated to play DH in today's game.

              You're underrating Williams' defense. This isn't Ted Williams, it's Billy Williams
              Last edited by AlecBoy006; 03-05-2007, 03:09 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                By saying that Banks played "most" of his career at First base, you're using lose terminology. It's true that Banks did play a majority of his career at first base. A 51% majority. He played another 45% at Shortstop, where his FRAA was 59. Not to mention he was also 32 FRAA at first base, for a career 91! That's pretty damn good. Williams was a good defenseman as well, with 79 FRAA for his career. But one again. As a leftfielder. Banks had 59 in 45% of his games, whereas is was 96% of Williams career to get that 79. Banks defense was clearly superior to Williams in general, and he did it at the most defensive position in the game.
                AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                AL Pennant: 1982
                NL Central Champions: 2011
                NL Wild Card: 2008

                "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

                Comment


                • #9
                  interesting...

                  Runningshoes wrote this story for my site last year.
                  It's All About R-E-S-P-E-C-T for 'Sweet Swinging' Billy Williams
                  Ask most Cubs fans to name the other player who could have laid claim to the title Mr. Cub and the first name to enter most minds will be that of a mechanical, methodically consistent outfielder whose career also took to him to Cooperstown.

                  If Ernie Banks had never donned the uniform, “Sweet Swinging” Billy Williams might well have earned that very honor for himself. For thirteen of his eighteen major league seasons he played in the shadow of the hugely popular Banks and although he got it from opposing pitchers, Williams never got the respect he deserved from the fans or the media in Chicago or the rest of the country.

                  His 147 hits, 25 home runs, 86 RBI’s and .277 batting average were enough to earn him the National League Rookie of the Year award in 1961, but the media’s attention was focused on Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris who were dueling to surpass Babe Ruth’s legendary season-high home run total and in 1972 he finished a distant second behind Cincinnati Reds catcher Johnny Bench and forced to take the proverbial back seat again.

                  After more than a decade of great accomplishments and keeping silent about the lack of respect he received for them, it was clear the usually tight-lipped Alabaman was beginning to resent being taken for granted when he told the Sporting News he was very unhappy with the voting results. Williams hit 37 home runs with 122 RBIs while maintaining a .333 average while Bench, who topped Williams’ home run and RBI total by three, had batted a whopping 63 points lower but got the award because the Reds won the pennant that year. A year earlier Willie Stargell, who had led the Pittsburgh Pirates the National League pennant, lost out to Joe Torre who was giving the award because of his better statistics.

                  The 1972 voting wasn’t even close. Bench had easily captured the award and Williams, who had been baseball’s most consistent hitter over the past five years, was angry in his own soft-spoken way.

                  “Every year there seems to be a different set of rules. Look at the figures. I was ahead in average and almost even in home runs and RBIs. You have to feel you weren’t awarded something you deserved and it a feeling that sticks with you.”

                  “Well after 13 years in the big leagues I’m going to let the other guy be the nice guy. I’m going to speak out if I see something. You get tired of people saying it’s easy for you to hit .300. It’s not easy. It’s a lot of work.

                  For his entire career, other, more colorful Cubs overshadowed him in his own ballpark. If he wasn’t competing for attention with Ernie Banks Ron Santo and Ferguson Jenkins, he was doing so with his own manager Leo Durocher whose “lip” was legendary for drawing the attention of fans and the media as well as the ire of his own players; now Williams’ lack of nation-wide media attention had possibly cost him the hard earned MVP award. Williams’ career was drawing to a close at the end of the 1972 campaign and he was only two years away from leaving the Cubs. He had spent the peak years of his career quietly building a Hall of Fame resume while trying to earn the respect he was so deserving of in Chicago.

                  When the following season rolled around the Cubs had made it clear that he did not fit into their plans for the future when they tried to convert him to first base during spring training. He was doomed to failure in that position so the Cubs grudgingly moved him back to left field, but the writing was on the wall.

                  Williams was traded to the World Champion Oakland Athletics after the 1974 season where he hoped to finally get the respect he deserved by winning a World Series ring.

                  The ring never came, but the respect did when the writers who had ignored him during his playing days recognized his incredible career by electing him to the Hall of Fame in 1987. Only ten days later he returned to Wrigley Field where his number 26 was raised to fly with Mr. Cub’s.
                  When I read this thread, I was reminded about this "RESPECT" story. I thought I would share this with everyone here.
                  BELIEVE

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AlecBoy006
                    WIth this- I come to conclude- Sweet Swinging Billy Williams is the REAL Mr. Cub.
                    Curious, where does Cap Anson fall on your Mr Cub-o-meter?
                    BELIEVE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How bout this.
                      Mr. 19th Century Cub- Cap Anson
                      Mr. 20th Century Cub- Billy Williams

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dudecar00
                        Banks defense was clearly superior to Williams in general, and he did it at the most defensive position in the game.
                        No. Banks defense was clearly superior to Williams BECAUSE he did it at the most defensive position in the game.

                        A shortstop gets more total chances than a left fielder, thus making it's a little easier to rack up fielding runs play shortstop than it is playing LF. FRAA is not meant to compare two players at different positions. It is meant to compare players playing the same position.

                        Of course Banks was more valuable defensively as a shortstop than Williams was as a LF. Duh. But AlecBoy makes an important point: Banks may have played 45% of his games at the game's most difficult position, but he also played 51% of his games at baseball's easiest position (at the time).

                        Is Banks' defensive edge enough to outweigh William's offensive edge? If so, this isn't a far and away thing as you might think.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tearforamariner
                          Of course Banks was more valuable defensively as a shortstop than Williams was as a LF. Duh. But AlecBoy makes an important point: Banks may have played 45% of his games at the game's most difficult position, but he also played 51% of his games at baseball's easiest position (at the time).
                          Yes, and Williams played at the 2nd easiest defensive position. Banks was a good defensive player at SS and 1B. Are you going to tell me that he moved to 1B because he sucked at SS? It wasn't because he was bad, it's because he had to move there. I would much rather take a guy who was a good SS for half his career and then a good fielding 1b the 2nd half of his career, than a good fielding LF for his whole career.

                          And what offensive edge does Williams have? Numbers like OPS+ are thrown out. I'd take Bank's peak OPS+ over Williams without even blinking. How about best 5 years in a row for OPS+.

                          Banks:'56-'60: 137, 150, 156, 155, 145
                          Williams:'64-'68: 147, 157, 122, 130, 142

                          Williams has the best one, but Banks has 2 more about Williams 2nd, and 3 about his 3rd. Their 4th and 5th aren't even close. If you compare the first half of their careers, Banks was the much better player. If you go by the 2nd half, Williams was superior, but not as superior as Banks was during the first half.

                          Banks still comes out ahead.
                          AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                          AL Pennant: 1982
                          NL Central Champions: 2011
                          NL Wild Card: 2008

                          "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dudecar00
                            Yes, and Williams played at the 2nd easiest defensive position. Banks was a good defensive player at SS and 1B. Are you going to tell me that he moved to 1B because he sucked at SS? It wasn't because he was bad, it's because he had to move there. I would much rather take a guy who was a good SS for half his career and then a good fielding 1b the 2nd half of his career, than a good fielding LF for his whole career.

                            And what offensive edge does Williams have? Numbers like OPS+ are thrown out. I'd take Bank's peak OPS+ over Williams without even blinking. How about best 5 years in a row for OPS+.

                            Banks:'56-'60: 137, 150, 156, 155, 145
                            Williams:'64-'68: 147, 157, 122, 130, 142

                            Williams has the best one, but Banks has 2 more about Williams 2nd, and 3 about his 3rd. Their 4th and 5th aren't even close. If you compare the first half of their careers, Banks was the much better player. If you go by the 2nd half, Williams was superior, but not as superior as Banks was during the first half.

                            Banks still comes out ahead.
                            I have no problem with you having Banks ahead, just don't use FRAA to compare players at two different positions. It makes you look stupid and I know you aren't. You are one of the smarter people here.

                            Williams did play LF, but so did Yaz and Barry Bonds. are you telling me that those players did not have an effect on their teams defensively?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This has to be the first time I heard someone say Banks is less deserving of the the title "Mr Cub". While you have made some good points, and it has been said already, Banks did play his whole career with the hapless Cubs and he had been tearing up the field for nearly a decade before Williams came. And dont forget Banks 2 MVPs on the 2nd Division Cubs. Thats just what I think, and as someone else said, Banks was such a happy cheerful guy out there.
                              "I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher."
                              -Rogers Hornsby-

                              "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
                              -Rogers Hornsby-

                              Just a note to all the active members of BBF, I consider all of you the smartest baseball people I have ever communicated with and love everyday I am on here. Thank you all!

                              Comment

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