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  • Is The Riot getting Quiet?

    Like many Cub fans, I am pleasantly surprised by the play of The Riot this year. I expected another year of Neifi-like production from Izturis, and instead we got a legitimate on-base threat who can steal a base without getting thrown out too much.

    My question though: Is he a legit 162-game ML starting SS?

    I think there is no question he is a legit ML player, a great guy for the bench. But he seems to be wearing down a bit, and though he doesn't commit alot of errors, I don't have a sense for how good he is with the glove.

    Sometimes diminuitive white guys get overrated because they are fan favorites. I fear this is happening with The Riot. I love the kid to death, but we need to be realistic. Is he our SS for 2008?

    PS: Same sort of debate on Fontenot, though I don't think anyone thinks he is a starter. I don't know if he is even a bench player unless he can play more positions. Not sure if he has the arm for 3B, or range for LF, but he better learn another position, or he'll be the next Warren Morris.

  • #2
    Theriot played very well this year, had a couple of cold streaks, but never seemed to be overly affected by them mentally. Given his age and experience level, I really can't tell if it's a fluke or not. His glove is really very good. He made one really glaring mistake last week, but otherwise has been near perfect. I don't know if the guy is a long term solution at SS, but I do believe he's earned the right to be given the opportunity next season.

    Fontenot is nowhere close to the same level, though he is a guy I feel comfortable with coming off the bench as a PH, a late inning defensive replacement at 2B, or even a spot starter when DeRosa needs to play a different position or needs a day off. He will likely be the reason that Daryle Ward doesn't play here next year.
    Senior Editor/Featured Writer for Home Of The Chiefs

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    • #3
      Ryan would be about an average hitting and fielding SS if he hadn't had two very bad hitting months. His June was absolutely dreadful and August was not good. If he can keep himself from cratering so badly he will be a fine everyday SS for this team. Not someone you sign to a multimillion dolllar multiyear contract, but somebody who you keep through arbitration and then wave good bye to when his agent wants to get a 4 year 40 million dollar contract.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Jeff Pico View Post
        My question though: Is he (Theriot) a legit 162-game ML starting SS?

        I think there is no question he is a legit ML player, a great guy for the bench. But he seems to be wearing down a bit, and though he doesn't commit alot of errors, I don't have a sense for how good he is with the glove.

        Sometimes diminuitive white guys get overrated because they are fan favorites. I fear this is happening with The Riot. I love the kid to death, but we need to be realistic. Is he our SS for 2008?
        Theriot has hit exactly like I thought he would this season posting a ~.720 OPS (I said .680-720 early in the year), with both the OBP/SLG in the neighborhood of .340-.360. He makes contact, works counts, doesn't strikeout alot, and has plus speed, everything you want out of a top the order guy. Defensively at SS, he fields what is hit to him with precision, has plus fundamental play but his lateral movement is lacking which doesn't help his slightly subpar arm. His best position is second base, which he fields excellently and his arm doesn't come into play. Still overall in defensive standards, Theriot is about average SS and compares very much to David Eckstein especially considering their bat abilities. What many don't take into consideration is that Eckstein is a rarity, players with his abilities are often transformed into 2B or utility infielders or are career minor leaguers. Hopefully Theriot can keep up his pace, as of right now he can play big league SS or at least give the GM leverage this offseason in free agent/trade pursuits that we already have a SS on the club.

        PS: Same sort of debate on Fontenot, though I don't think anyone thinks he is a starter. I don't know if he is even a bench player unless he can play more positions. Not sure if he has the arm for 3B, or range for LF, but he better learn another position, or he'll be the next Warren Morris.
        Fontenot is not a starter, he's a utility player/pinch hitter. He can play multiple positions (2B/LF/SS/etc), but none of them too well except 2B. With further MLB experience, he's a very versitiale player, as he has good plate recognition, decent power (for a player his size), and good contact.
        What a Batted Ball is Worth (in terms of a run):
        Line Drive: .356
        HBP: .342
        Non-Intentional Walk: .315
        Intentional Walk: .176
        Outfield Fly: .035
        Groundball: -.101
        Bunts: -.103
        Infield Fly: -.243
        Strikeout: -.287
        It's now officially Doctor Bob Sacamento, D.C., C.S.C.S., and working on my D.A.B.C.O. (Diplomate American Board of Chiropractic Orthopedics)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bob Sacamento View Post
          Theriot has hit exactly like I thought he would this season posting a ~.720 OPS (I said .680-720 early in the year), with both the OBP/SLG in the neighborhood of .340-.360. He makes contact, works counts, doesn't strikeout alot, and has plus speed, everything you want out of a top the order guy. Defensively at SS, he fields what is hit to him with precision, has plus fundamental play but his lateral movement is lacking which doesn't help his slightly subpar arm. His best position is second base, which he fields excellently and his arm doesn't come into play. Still overall in defensive standards, Theriot is about average SS and compares very much to David Eckstein especially considering their bat abilities. What many don't take into consideration is that Eckstein is a rarity, players with his abilities are often transformed into 2B or utility infielders or are career minor leaguers. Hopefully Theriot can keep up his pace, as of right now he can play big league SS or at least give the GM leverage this offseason in free agent/trade pursuits that we already have a SS on the club.


          Comparing him to Eckstein makes me think we should keep him around for a bit.
          Senior Editor/Featured Writer for Home Of The Chiefs

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nathanKent View Post


            Comparing him to Eckstein makes me think we should keep him around for a bit.
            Depends on your viewing of Eckstein, many scouts and analyst think he's the most overglorified SS in eons. While many think that his "grittiness" and style of play help him succeed. The real answer is probable somewhere in between, the Angels kept Eckstein as long as he was cheap and they were getting overvalue for him. But as soon as he was available on the market, the Angels wanted nothing to do with him, they even had shopped him the year prior. The Cubs are getting nearly 3-4million worth of play out of Theriot at SS this year while paying him less than 400K. That's likely to continue until Ryan enters arbitration. Personally, I think SSs like Eckstein and Theriot are kickbacks to the 50's-60's, the style of play is so similar as well as the roadblocks to get there. Of course, in today's game, those type of players are frowned upon and often passed over in favor of power bats and strong arms.
            What a Batted Ball is Worth (in terms of a run):
            Line Drive: .356
            HBP: .342
            Non-Intentional Walk: .315
            Intentional Walk: .176
            Outfield Fly: .035
            Groundball: -.101
            Bunts: -.103
            Infield Fly: -.243
            Strikeout: -.287
            It's now officially Doctor Bob Sacamento, D.C., C.S.C.S., and working on my D.A.B.C.O. (Diplomate American Board of Chiropractic Orthopedics)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bob Sacamento View Post
              Depends on your viewing of Eckstein, many scouts and analyst think he's the most overglorified SS in eons. While many think that his "grittiness" and style of play help him succeed. The real answer is probable somewhere in between, the Angels kept Eckstein as long as he was cheap and they were getting overvalue for him. But as soon as he was available on the market, the Angels wanted nothing to do with him, they even had shopped him the year prior. The Cubs are getting nearly 3-4million worth of play out of Theriot at SS this year while paying him less than 400K. That's likely to continue until Ryan enters arbitration. Personally, I think SSs like Eckstein and Theriot are kickbacks to the 50's-60's, the style of play is so similar as well as the roadblocks to get there. Of course, in today's game, those type of players are frowned upon and often passed over in favor of power bats and strong arms.
              I'm of the opinion that every team should try to have guys like that aboard. We have a rarity insofar as two of our quote-unquote power hitters also hit for a relatively high batting average and understand the principles of smallball, but for every guy like that there's a Sosa or a Bonds who doesn't run bases very effectively, doesn't know how to take walks, and swings at every pitch like it owes him money.
              Senior Editor/Featured Writer for Home Of The Chiefs

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by nathanKent View Post
                I'm of the opinion that every team should try to have guys like that aboard. We have a rarity insofar as two of our quote-unquote power hitters also hit for a relatively high batting average and understand the principles of smallball, but for every guy like that there's a Sosa or a Bonds who doesn't run bases very effectively, doesn't know how to take walks, and swings at every pitch like it owes him money.
                What you forget is that Sosa and Bonds were both multidimensional players (close to 4-5 tool players) for many years (Bonds from age 21-33, and Sosa 21-28), who developed vast power numbers later in their playing days while cutting short much of their other game.

                As for player's like Theriot, most teams have players like him, it's just most of those are used as utility players off the bench.
                What a Batted Ball is Worth (in terms of a run):
                Line Drive: .356
                HBP: .342
                Non-Intentional Walk: .315
                Intentional Walk: .176
                Outfield Fly: .035
                Groundball: -.101
                Bunts: -.103
                Infield Fly: -.243
                Strikeout: -.287
                It's now officially Doctor Bob Sacamento, D.C., C.S.C.S., and working on my D.A.B.C.O. (Diplomate American Board of Chiropractic Orthopedics)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bob Sacamento View Post
                  What you forget is that Sosa and Bonds were both multidimensional players (close to 4-5 tool players) for many years (Bonds from age 21-33, and Sosa 21-28), who developed vast power numbers later in their playing days while cutting short much of their other game.

                  As for player's like Theriot, most teams have players like him, it's just most of those are used as utility players off the bench.
                  Nah, I remember original formula Sosa very well. He was around before I lost faith in baseball the first time.
                  Senior Editor/Featured Writer for Home Of The Chiefs

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Were you around for Bonds then because what you described isn't Bonds at all?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
                      Were you around for Bonds then because what you described isn't Bonds at all?
                      Are you talking to me? More like we're you watching baseball at the time? Bonds was the most dominating player in the 90's and perhaps will go down as the most dynamic multidimensional baseball player of all-time. He was a legitamite threat for high average, excellent power, a speedy smart runner, GREAT defense and a strong arm. I've got about 20 scouting reports supporting it.
                      What a Batted Ball is Worth (in terms of a run):
                      Line Drive: .356
                      HBP: .342
                      Non-Intentional Walk: .315
                      Intentional Walk: .176
                      Outfield Fly: .035
                      Groundball: -.101
                      Bunts: -.103
                      Infield Fly: -.243
                      Strikeout: -.287
                      It's now officially Doctor Bob Sacamento, D.C., C.S.C.S., and working on my D.A.B.C.O. (Diplomate American Board of Chiropractic Orthopedics)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No I wasn't.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bob Sacamento View Post
                          He was a legitamite threat for high average, excellent power, a speedy smart runner, GREAT defense and a strong arm.
                          Incidentally, he was the last LF to win a Gold Glove, doing so in 1998.
                          To offset some of the pain of being a diehard Cubs fan, I've learned to also be a moderate Yankees fan.

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                          • #14
                            The Riot isn't getting quiet, but Z isn't getting any W's.
                            Senior Editor/Featured Writer for Home Of The Chiefs

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