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Matt Murton vs Felix Pie

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lipsander View Post
    Now that Fukudome is playing center every few days or so, maybe Murton will get a shot every few days to play right......and I hope he hits a ton.
    For that to happen, someone has to go down and with what have you done for me lately Piniella commanding the ship Pie is looking like that candidate which I don't agree with at all.
    What a Batted Ball is Worth (in terms of a run):
    Line Drive: .356
    HBP: .342
    Non-Intentional Walk: .315
    Intentional Walk: .176
    Outfield Fly: .035
    Groundball: -.101
    Bunts: -.103
    Infield Fly: -.243
    Strikeout: -.287
    It's now officially Doctor Bob Sacamento, D.C., C.S.C.S., and working on my D.A.B.C.O. (Diplomate American Board of Chiropractic Orthopedics)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bob Sacamento View Post
      For that to happen, someone has to go down and with what have you done for me lately Piniella commanding the ship Pie is looking like that candidate which I don't agree with at all.
      Ugh. I would not be happy with Lou if this happened. I'm probably not in the minority when I say I've been following Pie in the minors for years, anxiously awaiting his call up to the majors. I understand he has had a rough start, I understand he lacks plate discipline, but shouldn't we give him a chance?? He has been the gem of our farm system, he has tore it up at every minor league level.

      Maybe he will bust. But maybe he will blossom into a star, he has that potential. With what he brings defensively and speed wise, is it that bad to give him some experience, a lot of AB's, and see if he can fulfill his potential??

      I understand the Murton situation sucks, but you can't tell me we have been drooling over this guy for 5 years, and now we're just going to cut him off, even though he is already one of the best defensive outfielders in the league.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by wrigleybum View Post
        I understand he lacks plate discipline, but shouldn't we give him a chance?? He has been the gem of our farm system, he has tore it up at every minor league level.

        Maybe he will bust. But maybe he will blossom into a star, he has that potential. With what he brings defensively and speed wise, is it that bad to give him some experience, a lot of AB's, and see if he can fulfill his potential??

        .
        Amen, and if we screw around too much with Pie, we'll end up screwing him up permanently. Taking AB's away from him for Fontenot or Ward may or may not help us this year (debateable; we have no idea if Pie can hit), but definitely will not help us down the road. And I have nothing against Ward, Fonty, et al.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Windy City Fan View Post
          I'm no Soriano fan, but he does have a track record we can go by. Soriano, while grossly overpaid, should be productive. Pie does not have that track record.

          Here's a two part question to the Pie supporters: How long are you willing to stick with him if he continues to struggle? And what type of production do you want to see him give to keep his starting spot over Murton/Johnson?

          Me, I could see giving him April to show something. And as I said, long term for the season, I want a .350 OBP from him. That's enough to make him more valuable than Murton.
          Hahahahaha... a .350 OBP??? you serious? only like 4 players last year had a higher OBP than that for the Cubs... you're asking a lot IMO. Murton had a .352 OBP so he barely made it there in like 90 games. A quarter of the team won't have a .350 OBP or higher this year. Of course Pie doesn't have a track record yet... He's 23 and only 200 ABs for his career. He's basically a rookie who doesn't need to go back to AAA. Soriano is 32 with 7 full seasons. His rookie year was at age 25. Give him April to show something??? What's that? 100 ABs??

          As far as your 2 part question... first part... I don't know. I'm a huge supporter of Pie so probably 2 full seasons of actually starting from beginning to end of each season so end of next season(even then, he'll only be 24). Some guys take longer to develop. We don't have patience because we want our World Series NOW. I want that too, but I don't want to have a slump in the future as well or ruin the development of our prospects. I would rather have 10 years straight of going to playoffs and have a chance of winning it all than win WS this year and not be in the playoffs the next 9 years after that. Yeah I'm that crazy. second part... I'll take what Soriano had in his first full season (at age 25). It's like .260/.300/.430 I believe. Which sounds great to me for a great defensive CFer that is 23. Maybe he needs to hit in the 2 spot or even the 9 spot... He'll get to see better pitches, that's for sure. If Soriano or Lee was hitting behind Pie, you can bet he would see better pitches. Like other people have said... he went against guys who pitched well against the Cubs this year. His potential is more than a Juan Pierre type player. His potential to me is like Curtis Granderson (a 20-20 player with great defense in CF) or I can see him being that type of player. Maybe hit more HRs as he get older and put on weight.

          As for the Cubs... I can see them being competitive for the next 5 years honestly (although our best chances are the next 2 maybe but not likely 3 years). Considering we're in the weakest division.
          Last edited by The Splendid Splinter; 04-13-2008, 09:46 PM.
          "Back before I injured my hip, I thought going to the gym was for wimps."
          Bo Jackson

          Actually, I think they were about the same because I lettered in all sports, and I was a two-time state decathlon champion.
          Bo Jackson

          My sophomore year I placed 2nd, and my junior and senior year - I got smart and piled up enough points between myself and second place where I didn't have to run the mile.
          Bo Jackson

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
            A Sori-Pie-Fuku lineup versus a Sori-Fuku-Murton really does come down to the hitting of Pie and the hitting of Murton.

            Last year the best offensive Cf'ers added about 48 to 53 runs above replacement to their team. The best defensive CF'ers added about 25 runs.

            Even if Pie turns out to be the best defensive CF'er in the league he still going to be giving a lot up offensively if it turns out he can't hit. He can't put up a .271/.333 and expect to be a starter.

            If Murton puts up a line like 2006 in right and Pie puts up a offensive line like Nook Logan and a defensive line like Ichiro or Beltran then Murton will still add more runs to his team and his offense will also cover whatever loss the team suffers by losing Fuku's defense in right.
            That's all good and everything. You're missing out on something here. Murton is a LF that is below average defensively IMO and barely above average offensively. You can't compare the best offensive CF to best defensive CF and use it for Murton to Pie.

            You put in a key word when you said "giving up a lot up offensively IF it turns out he can't hit." How will we know if he can't hit if he doesn't get to play? We know he can hit from what he did in the minors. We'll never know if he's not playing. Plus put him in a spot where he can see better pitches. Put him behind Soriano in the 2 spot. He can bunt Sori over and use his speed as well. He needs to get involved in the offense more. What's the difference between Theriot and Pie anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if Theriot is worse this year than last year. So might as well put Pie at 2.
            "Back before I injured my hip, I thought going to the gym was for wimps."
            Bo Jackson

            Actually, I think they were about the same because I lettered in all sports, and I was a two-time state decathlon champion.
            Bo Jackson

            My sophomore year I placed 2nd, and my junior and senior year - I got smart and piled up enough points between myself and second place where I didn't have to run the mile.
            Bo Jackson

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            • #21
              The difference between Theriot and Pie is that one of them plays defense also.
              Senior Editor/Featured Writer for Home Of The Chiefs

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Splendid Splinter View Post
                That's all good and everything. You're missing out on something here. Murton is a LF that is below average defensively IMO and barely above average offensively. You can't compare the best offensive CF to best defensive CF and use it for Murton to Pie.
                And I didn't, I compared Matt Murton of 2006 to a Pie who could post the best CF defensive numbers to go along with poor offensive numbers. Under that scenario Murton is a better option then Pie.


                You put in a key word when you said "giving up a lot up offensively IF it turns out he can't hit." How will we know if he can't hit if he doesn't get to play? We know he can hit from what he did in the minors. We'll never know if he's not playing. Plus put him in a spot where he can see better pitches. Put him behind Soriano in the 2 spot. He can bunt Sori over and use his speed as well. He needs to get involved in the offense more. What's the difference between Theriot and Pie anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if Theriot is worse this year than last year. So might as well put Pie at 2.
                Might as well put neither in the #2 spot and instead put Murton in the #2 spot. We know Murton can hit and if the #2 spot is this spot where he will see better pitches then his line will be even better.

                I'm not saying we don't give Pie a chance. I'm saying that Pie shouldn't be a lock for the position, I don't think he has done enough to be a lock at this point. I don't really want to see Pie get the nod for 80 games and put up a .200 line. Secondly I'll say a Reed Johnson/Felix Pie platoon is even more pointless then a Sori-Fuku-Murton lineup. If they don't have faith in Pie right now then Murton should be up and Pie down.

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                • #23
                  There seems to be agreement on a few things here, suprisingly:

                  Especially, either play Pie in Chicago, or play him in Iowa. But if you're not going to play him, please send him down. I don't think anyone would argue that having him sit on the bench and play late-inning defense is a waste.

                  I am a Pie supporter, but my limit would probably be 150 to 200 AB's of suck before sending him down. If we sent him down, we probably play Reed Johnson in CF most days, with the Sori-Fuku-Murton lineup out there. I don't like the S-F-M OF, that takes us from VERY good defensive outfield to below average, bordering on POOR.

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                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=The Splendid Splinter;1163138]Hahahahaha... a .350 OBP??? you serious? only like 4 players last year had a higher OBP than that for the Cubs... you're asking a lot IMO. Murton had a .352 OBP so he barely made it there in like 90 games. A quarter of the team won't have a .350 OBP or higher this year. [quote]

                    The Cubs suck at OBP. Up and down the lineup we have loads of free swingers. Fukudome and to the lesser extent Lee are the only patient hitters we have. A .350 OBP isn't asking a whole lot. It's probably about 15 points ahead of the league. I figure Pie is gonna slug the league average at best, and probably be below the league mark. So basically I'm asking a centerfielder to post a OPS+ between 95 and 105. That's not asking a lot for a guy who you want in the lineup everyday.

                    Give him April to show something??? What's that? 100 ABs??
                    He's goes much longer than that and continues to be overmatched and post a .200 BA with an abysmal OBP ang SLG he could start to cost us our playoff shot this year.

                    As far as your 2 part question... first part... I don't know. I'm a huge supporter of Pie so probably 2 full seasons of actually starting from beginning to end of each season so end of next season(even then, he'll only be 24). Some guys take longer to develop. We don't have patience because we want our World Series NOW. I want that too, but I don't want to have a slump in the future as well or ruin the development of our prospects. I would rather have 10 years straight of going to playoffs and have a chance of winning it all than win WS this year and not be in the playoffs the next 9 years after that. Yeah I'm that crazy.

                    Crazy you are. 10 straight years in the playoffs is nice, but if we don't take a ring home, what does it mean? Nothing. I'd take one guaranteed ring and the next nine years in the cellar over 10 playoff appearances and no rings.

                    second part... I'll take what Soriano had in his first full season (at age 25). It's like .260/.300/.430 I believe. Which sounds great to me for a great defensive CFer that is 23.
                    I don't think we can afford an outfielder who puts up those kind of numbers and Theriot at SS. That's essentially two black holes in our lineup. Plus, I'm guessing his slugging will be lower than that.

                    Maybe he needs to hit in the 2 spot or even the 9 spot... He'll get to see better pitches, that's for sure. If Soriano or Lee was hitting behind Pie, you can bet he would see better pitches. Like other people have said... he went against guys who pitched well against the Cubs this year.
                    If we're gonna play him, sure try him in whatever spot you think will make him most likely to succeed. But if you want him to hit in the two slot, he's gonna need to have a better OBP than the lowly .300 you said you'd be satisfied with.

                    His potential is more than a Juan Pierre type player. His potential to me is like Curtis Granderson (a 20-20 player with great defense in CF) or I can see him being that type of player. Maybe hit more HRs as he get older and put on weight.
                    Maybe I'm underestimating his power. I do think Pie MAY be able to be a productive major leaguer. I think you're setting the bar pretty high with comparisons to Granderson. That complete lack of plate discipline is a red flag for me. I see too many guys who swing at anything that are either complete busts (Patterson) or are grossly overrated (Soriano). But even if you're right and Pie blossoms into a Granderson type player 3 years down the road, it won't matter. Our window of opportunity to actually win a World Series will have closed the Cubs will be getting ready for the next "rebuilding phase".

                    As for the Cubs... I can see them being competitive for the next 5 years honestly (although our best chances are the next 2 maybe but not likely 3 years). Considering we're in the weakest division.
                    The division isn't going to stay weak forever. I'm sure the Cards will reload soon enough and maybe the 'Stros as well. The Brewers are a young team that is still improving, where as we're an old team with a core group of players that have plateaued or are declining. My guess in 3 years the division will be stronger and we'll just be older.

                    But as Pico said, I do think having Pie up at the majors level and not playing him is a waste. He either needs to get a shot here or go down and get some playing time.

                    I would disagree with Pico in that a S/F/M outfield would be a poor defensive outfield. Murton is clearly below average in right, but its not like he's an absolute butcher out there. He's not Manny Rameriz or Gary Sheffield. Fukudome isn't as good as Pie defensively in center, but he's certainly at least average. I'd say probably above average. Swapping Pie for Murton certainly hurts our outfield defense, but it doesn't turn our outfield into a field disaster either. And we know Murton can provide badly needed OBP to help set the table for our sluggers.
                    "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
                    - Sammy Sosa

                    "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
                    - Craig Ashley (AKA Windy City Fan)

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                    • #25
                      Murton should've been starting years ago. He's been successful in his 929 plate appearances and he showed signs of power at the end of 2006. His development was critically stalled by the signing of Soriano. The Cubs had a possible sleeper in their hands and they went for the big name. The fact that they haven't traded him yet is pathetic on the Cubs' behalf. Not only are they denying themselves of a possible asset (Murton off the bench is not a terrible idea), they are also denying Murton the opportunity to make a name for himself. From what I've seen, Murton has had a good approach towards everything and seems to be very well received, I agree with whoever said it was a shame.

                      As for Pie, I don't think he's going to pan out in the majors. His natural tools are nice, but he lacks the approach (as everybody's mentioned). I think his defensive prowess has been overstated. He's got some speed, giving him some decent natural range, but his jumps, at least from what I've seen, are short of what I'd call good. Of course, the possibility exists that he'll improve his defense, but at this point, I'm not expecting a huge turnaround.

                      Quite frankly, I'd have to rate Chicago's position-player scouting as one of the worst in the majors. Looking around the league, I can't think of a single starting position player originating from the Cubs' system. Angel Pagan comes to mind, but he started as the 4th outfielder. Corey Patterson's a starter in Cincy (but Jay Bruce will likely have something to say about that). Their own roster only includes Soto, Cedeno, Fontenot and Pie. One of which is currently starting. I don't think they've had an all-star that they developed since Mark Grace. Of course, I could be missing some, so feel free to correct me. I'm curious

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rapmaster View Post
                        Quite frankly, I'd have to rate Chicago's position-player scouting as one of the worst in the majors. Looking around the league, I can't think of a single starting position player originating from the Cubs' system. Angel Pagan comes to mind, but he started as the 4th outfielder. Corey Patterson's a starter in Cincy (but Jay Bruce will likely have something to say about that). Their own roster only includes Soto, Cedeno, Fontenot and Pie. One of which is currently starting. I don't think they've had an all-star that they developed since Mark Grace. Of course, I could be missing some, so feel free to correct me. I'm curious
                        not to mention Pagan originally was brought over from the Mets in the first place. so its not like he originally came from the cubs organization. for whatever reason, they are terrible when it comes to judging position talent.

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                        • #27
                          Corey Patterson
                          Doug Glanville
                          Joe Girardi
                          Mark Grace
                          Rafael Palmeiro
                          It has been pretty bleak.

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                          • #28
                            What do you guys think, bad drafting or bad development?

                            I'm leaning towards development. Just by pure luck, drafting hundreds of players is bound to deliver more serviceable players than the aforementioned. Of course, many of them were pitchers, which we're disregarding, but still.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Rapmaster View Post
                              What do you guys think, bad drafting or bad development?

                              I'm leaning towards development. Just by pure luck, drafting hundreds of players is bound to deliver more serviceable players than the aforementioned. Of course, many of them were pitchers, which we're disregarding, but still.
                              bad development of hitting prospects to be sure. But also some sketchy drafting as well. Drafting is always a crapshoot to some degree, so I would say it leans toward lack of development.

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                              • #30
                                I lean towards bad drafting, but its probably a mix. The Cubs as an organization ignore the importance of OBP. It seems like a lot of the prospects we have coming up are free swingers. Patterson, Pie, and Cedano all fit the mold.

                                Development has been bad too. Patterson got bounced around a lot and we're not doing Pie any favors by having him sit on the bench.
                                "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
                                - Sammy Sosa

                                "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
                                - Craig Ashley (AKA Windy City Fan)

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