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  • Dusty Baker Abusing Pitchers?

    Does it worry you guys that Baker has a track record for abusing and damaging young pitchers, and now he's got his hands on Cueto, Volquez and Bailey and Cueto and Volquez have routinely gone over 110 pitches already this season?

    http://www.sportsix.blogspot.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mister Six View Post
    Does it worry you guys that Baker has a track record for abusing and damaging young pitchers, and now he's got his hands on Cueto, Volquez and Bailey and Cueto and Volquez have routinely gone over 110 pitches already this season?

    http://www.sportsix.blogspot.com
    Yes. It absolutely bothers me, but virtually everything Dusty does bothers me. I'm terrified Volquez and Cueto will end up like Prior and Wood.

    Perhaps the final straw was in the 18-inning game last Sunday where Dusty botched the bullpen management and Volquez was forced to throw 2 innings on extremely short rest.
    :radio Please check out my collection of vintage baseball recordings:

    http://www.oldtimesports.net/users/AWilliams

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    • #3
      Originally posted by NineWorldSeries View Post
      Perhaps the final straw was in the 18-inning game last Sunday where Dusty botched the bullpen management and Volquez was forced to throw 2 innings on extremely short rest.
      How would you of managed the bullpen in that situation?

      Not knowing it would take 18 innings to complete.... Please share with us your game plan....

      I will even make it easy on you... you know it takes 18 innings to get the win, share with us your bullpen innings on that game?

      I mean heck... how can you blame dusty for the 3... THREE blown saves that pen gave up leading to Harang and Volquez appearances...

      Also, did you know Wood was hurt in Chicago WAY before Dusty was ever the manager in the Northside?

      I just think because Prior and Wood had their issues, there has been alot of focus on Dusty... that is Bull... Those guys just had bad luck, and their bodies let them down... Kerry seems to be doing fine now, and Prior seems to be facing a career change... NOTHING to do with Dusty.
      BELIEVE

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      • #4
        The mistake that Baker made in that game was using Josh Fogg (long man) to get two outs, who eventually struggled and bring in Bill Bray to face a lefty when Bray is dominant against righties but struggles greatly against lefties. Bad idea there. Volquez and Cueto are different from Wood and Prior. If you watch them, they always throw better when they are closing in or reaching the 100 pitch mark.
        Unlike most other team sports, in which teams usually have an equivalent number of players on the field at any given time, in baseball the hitting team is at a numerical disadvantage, with a maximum of 5 players and 2 base coaches on the field at any time, compared to the fielding team's 9 players. For this reason, leaving the dugout to join a fight is generally considered acceptable in that it results in numerical equivalence on the field, and a fairer fight.

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        • #5
          What Abuse

          Baker abuses pitchers!?! When did this happen? I'll wait to vote on this debate when, in ten years, I can speak to the pool of surgeons of one time rising pithing stars that he has coached along the way.

          I don't understand why so many "baseball people" love this guy.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RBi View Post
            How would you of managed the bullpen in that situation?

            Not knowing it would take 18 innings to complete.... Please share with us your game plan....

            I will even make it easy on you... you know it takes 18 innings to get the win, share with us your bullpen innings on that game?

            I mean heck... how can you blame dusty for the 3... THREE blown saves that pen gave up leading to Harang and Volquez appearances...

            San Diego managed to go 18 innings without throwing in any of their key starting pitchers. We, however, had to ride our two (arguably) best horses in order to lose that game. We felt the repercussions of it all week.

            Dusty shouldn't always assume that games are going to last that long, but blowing through the entire bullpen without, seemingly, considering it as a possibility was a huge mistake. As already mentioned, Fogg is our long man, and trotting him out for 2 batters was a complete waste. By throwing Fogg before Bray (the huge mistake), Dusty committed himself to going to the rotation if the save was blown. Knowing our bullpen, that was a very strong possibility. I can't blame Dusty for them happening, but Dusty should have at least accounted for that possibility...
            :radio Please check out my collection of vintage baseball recordings:

            http://www.oldtimesports.net/users/AWilliams

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            • #7
              Originally posted by NineWorldSeries View Post
              San Diego managed to go 18 innings without throwing in any of their key starting pitchers. We, however, had to ride our two (arguably) best horses in order to lose that game. We felt the repercussions of it all week.

              Dusty shouldn't always assume that games are going to last that long, but blowing through the entire bullpen without, seemingly, considering it as a possibility was a huge mistake. As already mentioned, Fogg is our long man, and trotting him out for 2 batters was a complete waste. By throwing Fogg before Bray (the huge mistake), Dusty committed himself to going to the rotation if the save was blown. Knowing our bullpen, that was a very strong possibility. I can't blame Dusty for them happening, but Dusty should have at least accounted for that possibility...
              Fogg wasn't sent out for just 2 batters, he was sent out for 4 batters and Bray ended up allowing those runners to score. The blame is solely on poor relief pitching. In innings 8-11, the guys who are suppose to shut the door (Affeldt, Weathers, Cordero, Fogg, Bray) allowed 4 runs. The Reds had leads in the middle of the 5th, middle of the 8th, middle of the 9th, and middle of the 11th.
              Unlike most other team sports, in which teams usually have an equivalent number of players on the field at any given time, in baseball the hitting team is at a numerical disadvantage, with a maximum of 5 players and 2 base coaches on the field at any time, compared to the fielding team's 9 players. For this reason, leaving the dugout to join a fight is generally considered acceptable in that it results in numerical equivalence on the field, and a fairer fight.

              Comment


              • #8
                I never thought much of Dusty but I dont blame him for the Wood, Prior fiasco. Most of all in 2003. If your lucky you might get one shot at the WS in your career and when you do have that shot you have to go for it.

                Back "in the day" teams had 4 man rotations and the pitcher was expected to pitch 300+ innings a year. There was no such thing as middle relief because a starting pitcher knew he wouldnt stay in the bigs, and get paid, if he didn't give an owner 8 innings work. But nobody ever accused a manager of "hurting their pitchers" back then.

                Then came MRIs and big contracts. All of a sudden a starter can make 10+ million a year if he can post 14 wins and pitch 200 innings.

                I suspect High School speed guns and surgeons ruined Prior and hurt Wood far, far more then Dusty Baker ever did.
                "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never." :hyper:

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                • #9
                  Pitch counts are what bothers me. I wish they would scrap the overabundance in the bullpen (not only on the Reds, but league-wide) and start training the starters to actually pitch 9 innings.
                  The Writer's Journey

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NineWorldSeries View Post
                    San Diego managed to go 18 innings without throwing in any of their key starting pitchers. We, however, had to ride our two (arguably) best horses in order to lose that game. We felt the repercussions of it all week.

                    Dusty shouldn't always assume that games are going to last that long, but blowing through the entire bullpen without, seemingly, considering it as a possibility was a huge mistake. As already mentioned, Fogg is our long man, and trotting him out for 2 batters was a complete waste. By throwing Fogg before Bray (the huge mistake), Dusty committed himself to going to the rotation if the save was blown. Knowing our bullpen, that was a very strong possibility. I can't blame Dusty for them happening, but Dusty should have at least accounted for that possibility...
                    I have to call BS on that one. Its routine in long games (15 inning plus) that at least one extra starting pitcher will be used to get through the game. If it reaches 18, you'll be lucky to get out of it without using the previous day's starter and the next day's starter.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NineWorldSeries View Post
                      San Diego managed to go 18 innings without throwing in any of their key starting pitchers. We, however, had to ride our two (arguably) best horses in order to lose that game. We felt the repercussions of it all week.
                      Correct, San Diego did NOT have to pull any of their key starters to pitch... But are you giving credit to Bud Black for that accomplishment? Josh Banks was their final arm in the pen. if he doesn't go 6 innings there you would see Bud Black either go with a starter or put a position player on the mound....

                      I'm not going to be surprised to hear someone try and blame Dusty for the Reds not being able to score on Banks in the 6 innings he pitched...

                      Those sort of games are rare... and teams feel the backlash (win or lose) of them the following week. Dusty is not to blame for that....

                      I do understand your concerns on throwing your top two starters late in that game, but it just happened that they had the longest rest...

                      "Take one for the team" is still something that the guys in baseball live upto.
                      BELIEVE

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rockin500 View Post
                        I have to call BS on that one. Its routine in long games (15 inning plus) that at least one extra starting pitcher will be used to get through the game. If it reaches 18, you'll be lucky to get out of it without using the previous day's starter and the next day's starter.
                        I'm not saying we could have gotten through 18 without using Harang. It's throwing Volquez at the end that was an absolute travesty.
                        :radio Please check out my collection of vintage baseball recordings:

                        http://www.oldtimesports.net/users/AWilliams

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NineWorldSeries View Post
                          I'm not saying we could have gotten through 18 without using Harang. It's throwing Volquez at the end that was an absolute travesty.
                          How, there was almost no way to avoid it. The reason Volquez was used instead of Cueto was so that there would be someone to start the next game. This was before we knew that Josh Fogg would be starting. There was no way we would have known what would happen. Baker managed the game the way I would have except for bringing in Bray so early (because of matchups).
                          Unlike most other team sports, in which teams usually have an equivalent number of players on the field at any given time, in baseball the hitting team is at a numerical disadvantage, with a maximum of 5 players and 2 base coaches on the field at any time, compared to the fielding team's 9 players. For this reason, leaving the dugout to join a fight is generally considered acceptable in that it results in numerical equivalence on the field, and a fairer fight.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Complaining about Dusty's management of the bullpen in the 18 inning game and in other games this year is fair. Every manager gets questioned in that regard. However, blaming him for "overworking" pitchers is ridiculous. As has been remarked before, i'm tired of every hurler being babied. 20 years ago we didnt have pitch counts and pitchers would throw 100+ more innings a year. Just because he had two young pitchers who developed arm trouble doesnt mean it was his fault. Was he supposed to restrain Wood and Prior to 5 inning appearances? Would it have made a difference? No way to tell and my guess is probabaly not. If Edinson or Cueto come up with injuries, its not Dusty Baker's fault, its just the way things go. Also, to me, i dont believe either one of them will come up with lame arms because they come from different backgrounds and i think they are more durable. Time will tell.

                            G Man

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                            • #15
                              I dont think he overworks starters so much as he overworks relievers in general. See his Giant years. He routinely had 4 or 5 of his pitchers in the Top 10 in appearances. Now they can say bullpen stability. But, generally reliever shouldnt be used in over 80 games. (Maybe not 70). People dont consider it often enough. But, getting up sitting down, getting up sitting down, warming up all the time. It'll take its toll. I remember Tavarez for instance pitched 89 games one year for him.


                              Actually, I have to admit even though they were pitching more innings. The relievers were less abused 30 years ago. They'd go 2 or 3 innings per appearance. But they'd only appear 50 times or so compared to 80.


                              And with Wood and Prior. You might can blame Dusty for a lot of things. But, for Wood at least, no. Wood was essentially abused way back in high school. He was damaged goods the day he was drafted. Prior? maybe, I doubt it. Robb Nen and a couple dozen other relief pitchers that have had the misfortune of being part of a Dusty bullpen? Probably, but most other managers enjoy abusing their bullpen too. So, he isnt much worse.


                              Now Adam Dunn bunting? Dusty what is up with that? :noidea If you are going to ask a slugger to bunt at least use one that might have a clue how to bunt.

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