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NY METS Regular Season 2007 Thread

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  • Originally posted by [B
    Well, NOBODY liked Valentine on the club at that point. They all had one gripe or another with him. Franco was clubhouse poison at the time and probably worse than Valentine, but Leiter and Glavine both felt as starting pitchers that Valentine was throwing their arms out (Which he was...check out their Pitcher Abuse Points during the time Bobby V. was the manager...), which is why they jumped on Franco's band wagon.
    [/B]

    Valentine's last year as manager was 2002. Glavine signed for 2003 and played for Art Howe.
    Last edited by GIANT; 10-04-2007, 03:48 PM.

    Comment


    • 2002 off-season.

      GIANT, since I can't PM you, I will post it here. You have pretty much said in every post that the Mets make too many "quick fixes" and don't utilize the draft. Would you consider trading a good amount of their top young talent for Johan Santana and locking him up for 5-7 years as a "quick fix"?
      "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

      "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

      "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
        2002 off-season.

        GIANT, since I can't PM you, I will post it here. You have pretty much said in every post that the Mets make too many "quick fixes" and don't utilize the draft. Would you consider trading a good amount of their top young talent for Johan Santana and locking him up for 5-7 years as a "quick fix"?

        First, Glavine did not play for Valentine. The poster indicated Valentine wore out Glavine's arm, which is factually incorrect.

        The talk about Santana being available is just that talk. If Minnesota decides to trade him, they would be far better off trading him to a team that will offer highly rated prospects and maybe major league talent. The Mets farm system presently is devoid of prospects with rare exception. Buster Olney addressed this issue on ESPN the other day. He indicated the Twins would want Reyes and three prospects from the Mets. The Mets can't afford to trade Reyes and they don't have the minor league talent required to complete the trade. Arizona, Colorado and Detroit they have bountiful minor league systems and might be able to offer highly rated prospects. If The Mets convince the Twins to take the garbage in their farm system, it would be the biggest heist since the brinks robbery.
        Last edited by GIANT; 10-04-2007, 04:20 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GIANT View Post
          The talk about Santana being available is just that talk. If Minnesota decides to trade him, they would be far better off trading him to a team that will offer highly rated prospects and maybe major league talent. The Mets farm system presently is devoid of prospects with rare exception. Buster Olney addressed this issue on ESPN the othe day. He indicated the Twins would want Reyes and three prospects from the Mets. The Mets can't afford to trade Reyes and they don't have the minor league talent required to complete the trade. Arizona, Colorado and Detroit they have bountiful minor league systems and might be able to offer highly rated prospects. If The Mets convince the Twins to take the garbage in their farm system, it would be the biggest heist since the brinks robbery.
          First off, Buster Olney is an absolute idiot. I could show to you a list of some things he's said. They are so dumb and baseless they would make you wonder how he got his job to begin with and how he's managed to keep it.

          Second, you didn't answer my question. Would the Mets trading their top young talent (regardless of what you think of them) for Johan Santana and locking him up to a long term deal be a "quick fix"? You seem to value prospects so highly (like too many people) and condemn any type of move where an older player is acquired.
          Last edited by NYMets523; 10-04-2007, 04:32 PM.
          "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

          "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

          "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
            First off, Buster Olney is an absolute idiot. I could show to you a list of some things he's said. They are so dumb and baseless they would make you wonder how he got his job to begin with and how he's managed to keep it.

            Second, you didn't answer my question. Would the Mets trading their top young talent (regardless of what you think of them) for Johan Santana and locking him up to a long term deal be a "quick fix"? You seem to value prospects so highly (like too many people) and condemn any type of move where an older player is acquired.
            I disagree Buster Olney is an idiot. Please identify the top talent the Mets could offer for Santana?

            I reiterate the Mets do not have the prospects to offer Minnesota for Sanatana. The older players acquired by the Mets for draft choices Glavine (you despise him), Martinez hurt his arm, Alou he was injured for better than half the season. They cost the Mets draft choices. Yet, you continue to believe by following the same pattern the Mets will be instant contenders. It doesn't work that way. The Angels when they were owned by Gene Autry spent lavishly on free agents Joe Rudi, Bobby Grich and Reggie Jackson etc. and they won nothing. Colorado spent big money on Mike Hampton (another Met failure) and Denny Naegle. They won nothing. Colorado realized the error of their ways and addressed their farm system. They are currently in the playoffs with Franklin Morales, Manny Corpas, Garrett Adkins, Brad Hawpe and Brad Holliday. They will be contenders for more than this year. Older players are fine provided you have the foundation in place with young talent. Older players should supplement rather than be the foundation for a contender. If you recall the 86 Mets they had Dystra, Backman, Strawberry, Gooden, McDowell etc. all products of their farm system. Frank Cashen than traded young players for Gary Carter, Keith Hernandez and Danny Heep and the Mets made it to the World Series and won it. The Mets need to follow Cashen's blue print it was the same one used by Johnny Murphy in 1969 the other year the Mets won a championship.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GIANT View Post
              I disagree Buster Olney is an idiot.
              He said the Indians would trade C.C. Sabathia if they weren't in contention this year.
              He said Eric Gagne would veto a trade to the Mets since he would not be able to close (The Mets were not one of the teams Gagne could block).
              He wrote an article that made it sound that Mark Buehrle was halfway to Shea Stadium. Here's what he wrote in his article: “There is an absolute, natural framework in place for a deal with the Mets: Buehrle for Lastings Milledge, with the White Sox perhaps sending some other piece along, because Buehrle is only a few months from free agency.”
              He said Mets would go after Carlos Zambrano during the season.
              He said The Mets would trade for Alex Rios (because it "made sense").
              He said the Mets would trade for Manny Ramirez for years.
              He said the Mets had traded for Barry Zito every trading deadline for the past few years.
              Thought the Red Sox would trade Matsuzaka after singing him.

              I reiterate the Mets do not have the prospects to offer Minnesota for Sanatana. The older players acquired by the Mets for draft choices Glavine (you despise him), Martinez hurt his arm, Alou he was injured for better than half the season. They cost the Mets draft choices. Yet, you continue to believe by following the same pattern the Mets will be instant contenders.
              They needed to sign Pedro to show the team was working towards winning. They needed Glavine because the rotation would have been worse without him. I don't like him but I rather see him in the rotation than the Mets put a bum in there simply to get the draft pick. I think you are vastly overrating the draft. Just because you draft someone doesn't mean they will be a significant contributor.

              Colorado spent big money on Mike Hampton (another Met failure) and Denny Naegle. They won nothing. Colorado realized the error of their ways and addressed their farm system. They are currently in the playoffs with Franklin Morales, Manny Corpas, Garrett Adkins, Brad Hawpe and Brad Holliday. They will be contenders for more than this year. Older players are fine provided you have the foundation in place with young talent. Older players should supplement rather than be the foundation for a contender.
              Hampton wasn't a Met failure. They actually drafted David Wright with a compensation pick for letting Hampton go. They got Heilman with the other draft pick.

              If you recall the 86 Mets they had Dystra, Backman, Strawberry, Gooden, McDowell etc. all products of their farm system. Frank Cashen than traded young players for Gary Carter, Keith Hernandez and Danny Heep and the Mets made it to the World Series and won it. The Mets need to follow Cashen's blue print it was the same one used by Johnny Murphy in 1969 the other year the Mets won a championship.
              I also recall that it took Cashen about 5 years to produce that team. You're not going to get a great farm system in 2 years. It's been getting filled since Minaya came here.
              Last edited by NYMets523; 10-04-2007, 05:22 PM.
              "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

              "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

              "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                He said the Indians would trade C.C. Sabathia if they weren't in contention this year.
                He said Eric Gagne would veto a trade to the Mets since he would not be able to close (The Mets were not one of the teams Gagne could block).
                He wrote an article that made it sound that Mark Buehrle was halfway to Shea Stadium. Here's what he wrote in his article: “There is an absolute, natural framework in place for a deal with the Mets: Buehrle for Lastings Milledge, with the White Sox perhaps sending some other piece along, because Buehrle is only a few months from free agency.”
                He said Mets would go after Carlos Zambrano during the season.
                He said The Mets would trade for Alex Rios (because it "made sense").
                He said the Mets would trade for Manny Ramirez for years.
                He said the Mets had traded for Barry Zito every trading deadline for the past few years.
                Thought the Red Sox would trade Matsuzaka after singing him.


                Please provide the support for your allegations against Olney i.e. provide the publications where he wrote these things.


                They needed to sign Pedro to show the team was working towards winning. They needed Glavine because the rotation would have been worse without him. I don't like him but I rather see him in the rotation than the Mets put a bum in there simply to get the draft pick. I think you are vastly overrating the draft. Just because you draft someone doesn't mean they will be a significant contributor.

                Balderdash! You don't understand the draft. I have cited numerous teams that have used the draft to their advantage. The Mets do not fall into that category.


                Hampton wasn't a Met failure. They actually drafted David Wright with a compensation pick for letting Hampton go. They got Heilman with the other draft pick.

                You proved my point. The draft does work provided you exhibit patience.


                I also recall that it took Cashen about 5 years to produce that team. You're not going to get a great farm system in 2 years. It's been getting filled since Minaya came here.


                It took Cashen time because the Mets farm system was a disaster. Previous ownership under Lorinda DeRoulet didn't spend any money on player development. Please provide the names of all the prospects Minaya has signed other than from the Dominican Republic from the June draft whom you believe are prospective major leaguers? Please provide the names of players you believe the Twins would accept for Santana?

                I totally disagree with you on the Mets using the draft to their advantage. I respect your right to disgree.
                Last edited by GIANT; 10-04-2007, 06:10 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GIANT View Post
                  Please provide the support for your allegations against Olney i.e. provide the publications where he wrote these things.
                  I'll look tomorrow. I know he said the thing about Sabathia on the radio. I can dig through ESPN and some other sites to find the links.

                  Balderdash! You don't understand the draft. I have cited numerous teams that have used the draft to their advantage. The Mets do not fall into that category.
                  What I understand about the draft is that the players you draft are no guarantee to succeed and if they do, won't for some years. They needed Glavine and Alou because they were in a position to win this year and whoever they drafted wasn't going to contribute this year.

                  You proved my point. The draft does work provided you exhibit patience.
                  It works but it is no guarantee. The Mets and many other teams have acquired players from their camps in Latin America. The baseball draft isn't like football or basketball where you have a very good idea of how a player will turn out.

                  Please provide the names of players you believe the Twins would accept for Santana
                  Do you mean players the Mets would be willing to trade and/or the Twins would accept?

                  Also take into account a few things:
                  A) Johan has a full no-trade clause. He's said he'd waive it (for compensation). It's more where he wants to go than where the Twins can get the best offer.
                  B) The Twins will only get the prospects they deserve if the team getting Santana will sign a long-term deal. Arizona and Colorado don't have those resources. He'd cost too many prospects to be a rental which means the Twins wouldn't get as much as they could without a window to make a new deal.

                  I totally disagree with you on the Mets using the draft to their advantage. I respect your right to disgree.
                  I agree they should be using the draft. However, the draft is not the only way to succeed.
                  Last edited by NYMets523; 10-04-2007, 07:54 PM.
                  "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                  "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                  "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=NYMets523;1019567]I'll look tomorrow. I know he said the thing about Sabathia on the radio. I can dig through ESPN and some other sites to find the links.

                    Great.

                    What I understand about the draft is that the players you draft are no guarantee to succeed and if they do, won't for some years. They needed Glavine and Alou because they were in a position to win this year and whoever they drafted wasn't going to contribute this year.

                    This is contrary to your position. You claim the Mets are not using the "quick fix" approach yet you now admit (which proves my point) they wanted to win this year. Justin Upton of Arizona drated last year is in the major leagues this year. Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy of the Yankees were drafted last year and are in the big leagues.

                    It works but it is no guarantee. The Mets and many other teams have acquired players from their camps in Latin America. The baseball draft isn't like football or basketball where you have a very good idea of how a player will turn out.

                    There are no guarantees in life except death and taxes.

                    Do you mean players the Mets would be willing to trade and/or the Twins would accept?

                    Also take into account a few things:
                    A) Johan has a full no-trade clause. He's said he'd waive it (for compensation). It's more where he wants to go than where the Twins can get the best offer.
                    B) The Twins will only get the prospects they deserve if the team getting Santana will sign a long-term deal. Arizona and Colorado don't have those resources. He'd cost too many prospects to be a rental which means the Twins wouldn't get as much as they could without a window to make a new deal.


                    [B]Provide me with a list of players you would accept if you were the G. M. of the Twins from the Mets.

                    I never said Colorado and Arizona were interested in Santana. Provide me with a list of prospects you would accept from the Mets for Santana?

                    I agree they should be using the draft. However, the draft is not the only way to succeed.[/QUOTE]

                    The draft is not the only way to succeed but you won't succeed without it.
                    Last edited by GIANT; 10-04-2007, 08:21 PM.

                    Comment


                    • "First, Glavine did not play for Valentine. The poster indicated Valentine wore out Glavine's arm, which is factually incorrect."

                      Sorry. Got caught up in that one. He was abusing Leiter, though, and Leiter quickly clamped on to Glavine.

                      "Please provide the support for your allegations against Olney i.e. provide the publications where he wrote these things."

                      You can spend a good half a day on ESPN.com, find that, and even more. Or just search this forum (Baseball-Fever.com in general) for specific posts, since many have accompanying links. Olney is a moron; easily the worst analyst they've employed long-term outside of Steve Phillips. In late 2005 (I think), someone posted Olney's trade rumor record on mlbtraderumors.com. He'd actually been wrong more times than he was right. Now, sure, most rumor mongers are. But by roughly 85% of the rumors he reported???

                      "It took Cashen time because the Mets farm system was a disaster."

                      You could easily replace "Cashen" with "Minaya" here and get the same results. Our two best prospects obtained via the draft under Phillips were David Wright and Aaron Heilman. Oh, and Scott Kazmir. Plus one international free agent star signed in Jose Reyes. Outside of that, we had virtually nothing. To his credit, Jim Duquette got Philip Humber and Mike Carp. And basically no one else.

                      "Please provide the names of all the prospects Minaya has signed other than from the Dominican Republic from the June draft whom you believe are prospective major leaguers."

                      They may not come up in their current roles and it will obviously take some time, but...

                      -Mike Pelfrey
                      -Joe Smith
                      -Jon Niese
                      -Kevin Mulvey
                      -Dan Murphy
                      -Tobi Stoner
                      -Phillips Orta
                      -Eddie Kunz
                      -Stephen Clyne
                      -Brant Rustich

                      That's 10 in 3 years who I believe will at least see Major League playing time. Hector Pellot flopped and I think Bobby Parnell hit his ceiling. Yes, I know 9 of 10 are pitchers, but isn't that our biggest problem right now?
                      Last edited by Dalkowski110; 10-05-2007, 11:31 AM.
                      "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
                      -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

                      Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GIANT View Post
                        This is contrary to your position. You claim the Mets are not using the "quick fix" approach yet you now admit (which proves my point) they wanted to win this year. Justin Upton of Arizona drated last year is in the major leagues this year. Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy of the Yankees were drafted last year and are in the big leagues.
                        They weren't guaranteed to be on the ML roster this year. Brian Cashman didn't even want to bring up Chamberlain and Kennedy. He only did it out of necessity. All of them could have flopped as easily as they've succeeded.

                        Alou and Glavine were quick fixes but the team won't be set back several years because they sacrificed the draft picks to acquire them.

                        I never said Colorado and Arizona were interested in Santana. Provide me with a list of prospects you would accept from the Mets for Santana?
                        I just used Colorado and Arizona as an example of teams with the farm system to get him

                        If I was the Twins GM, I would be willing to accept Aaron Heilman (he's not a prospect but the Mets want to get rid of him and he's not bad), Lastings Milledge, Carlos Gomez, Mike Pelfrey, Philip Humber, Fernando Martinez, Mike Carp. I'm not the expert on the Mets farm system. I'm sure if you asked someone more knowledgeable of it they could tell you more. I am sure a deal could be worked out that would satisfy the Twins.
                        Last edited by NYMets523; 10-05-2007, 11:37 AM.
                        "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                        "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                        "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                          They weren't guaranteed to be on the ML roster this year. Brian Cashman didn't even want to bring up Chamberlain and Kennedy. He only did it out of necessity. All of them could have flopped as easily as they've succeeded.

                          Alou and Glavine were quick fixes but the team won't be set back several years because they sacrificed the draft picks to acquire them.


                          I just used Colorado and Arizona as an example of teams with the farm system to get him

                          If I was the Twins GM, I would be willing to accept Aaron Heilman (he's not a prospect but the Mets want to get rid of him and he's not bad), Lastings Milledge, Carlos Gomez, Mike Pelfrey, Philip Humber, Fernando Martinez, Mike Carp. I'm not the expert on the Mets farm system. I'm sure if you asked someone more knowledgeable of it they could tell you more. I am sure a deal could be worked out that would satisfy the Twins.

                          The Twins need young pitching and a 1st baseman like they need another hole in the head. They have a kid named Garrett Jones, who by everyone's estimation in Minnesota (players and coaching staff) has more power than anyone that the Twins have in the organization. He is a natural first baseman and the Twins have spent the last season and a half in a miserable experience having him try to learn the outfield at AAA. He plays the outfield like a drunken sailor on shore leave trying to field live grenades. It's not pretty. They called him up in September and he DH'd and played a bit of 1st base, and that's probably the role he'll have next season. The other first baseman at AAA was Glen Williams, who has had a cup of coffee in the bigs that was pretty impressive, but Jones has passed him on the depth chart at first base.

                          In terms of young pitching, the Twins are stacked. 4 out of the 5 of the likely opening day rotation for next pitched in AAA at some point this season and that doesn't include Nick Blackburn, who is probably the organization's best pitching prospect or Bobby Korecky, who set a Rochester franchise record for saves this past season. They would have little or no use for any of the young pitching the Mets have to offer and quite frankly Humber or Pelfrey would represent a downgrade of talent in their rotation.

                          The Twins need someone who can play centerfield and has some pop in their bat and possibly a third baseman (should Mauer not move there in the off season) but I don't think that they are willing to part with Santana for unproven outfield talent, unless it comes with alot more that they can actually use because the pipline of talent is pretty full and really talented. 2 or 3 years from now will be a real good time to be a Twins fan, beacuse they are going to have a young and talented team that will kick some serious ass in the AL.

                          Comment


                          • You can never have too much pitching today.
                            "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                            "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

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                            • Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                              You can never have too much pitching today.
                              I can absolutely assure you that Minnesota would have no interest in Pelfrey or Humber as anything more than an absolute throw in. Minnesota is very happy with its young pitching in the organization and in all honesty the Twins had 5 guys who threw at AAA this year who are miles ahead of both of those guys in terms of talent and being MLB quality talent.

                              In fact, neither of those guys would have been better than a 4 or 5 starter at Rochester this season.

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                              • "the Twins had 5 guys who threw at AAA this year who are miles ahead of both of those guys in terms of talent and being MLB quality talent."

                                I guess, maybe, but Matt Garza and Scott Baker were both called up. So was Kevin Slowey, though he still needs some time to mature and was sent back down. That leaves southpaw phenom Brian Duensing as a comparable pitcher (Remember, Humber pitched both coming off TJ surgery and in the second worst pitcher's professional league, and Pelfrey was just plain rushed). But some of the other guys...David Gassner? Is he really better than Humber and Pelfrey? I'm sorry, I can't agree. And how about Jeremy "Quad A Rotation Filler" Cummings? And I know Ryan Mullins is good, but is he THAT good? I agree with your overall assessment, except I think you're severely undervaluing Pelfrey and Humber. No, the Twins don't have a use for them, but no, they're not that weak, either.
                                Last edited by Dalkowski110; 10-05-2007, 04:31 PM.
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                                Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

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