Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Baseball Maverick (Who Revolutionized Baseball and Revived the Mets)™

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Baseball Maverick (Who Revolutionized Baseball and Revived the Mets)™

    We've been hearing a lot lately about how Sandy Alderson pushed the two best hitters in the National League out the door.

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/06/...onals-dodgers/

    This is not something we must just "move on" from. These moves were disasters that did great, ongoing damage to the franchise.

    Alderson's draft picks, his free agent signings, his trades. I've been critical as the moves were made. Time for all to admit: he's not very good.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    We've been hearing a lot lately about how Sandy Alderson pushed the two best hitters in the National League out the door.

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/06/...onals-dodgers/

    This is not something we must just "move on" from. These moves were disasters that did great, ongoing damage to the franchise.

    Alderson's draft picks, his free agent signings, his trades. I've been critical as the moves were made. Time for all to admit: he's not very good.
    I will give him credit for the Syndergaard trade.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mandrake View Post

      I will give him credit for the Syndergaard trade.
      Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran was pretty good. Also, drafting guys like Michael Fulmer and Michael Conforto were also good moves.
      The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Blue387 View Post

        Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran was pretty good. Also, drafting guys like Michael Fulmer and Michael Conforto were also good moves.
        Looking back 6 years, I am not too sure.

        Since the trade, Beltran has 534 RBI's, 27 year old Wheeler is 21 wins and 21 losses with a 3.80 ERA. Yes, the Giants did not sign Beltran as they should have, but they went on to win WS in 2012 and 2014 without Wheeler. 3 WS in 5 seasons isn't too shabby. Wheeler hasn't become an ace. He hasn't won a WS game, let alone a ring.

        Beltran possibly could end up in Cooperstown. (possibly). Wheeler isn't getting there unless he pays admission. http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...ran-hall-famer

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mandrake View Post

          Looking back 6 years, I am not too sure.

          Since the trade, Beltran has 534 RBI's, 27 year old Wheeler is 21 wins and 21 losses with a 3.80 ERA. Yes, the Giants did not sign Beltran as they should have, but they went on to win WS in 2012 and 2014 without Wheeler. 3 WS in 5 seasons isn't too shabby. Wheeler hasn't become an ace. He hasn't won a WS game, let alone a ring.

          Beltran possibly could end up in Cooperstown. (possibly). Wheeler isn't getting there unless he pays admission. http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...ran-hall-famer
          The trade at the time was a good move. Wheeler was a prized pick for the Giants. In 2011 the Mets were going no where and were going to lose Beltran anyway.

          Wheeler's career has been a big disappointment thus far without a doubt due to injuries. Some trades work and some don't. On the other side of the coin Beltran missed about 2 weeks with the Giants that year due to injury.

          Trades in my opinion have two sides:

          1) The initial reaction. Was it good for both teams at the time? Did anyone get fleeced? Did it make sense? etc

          2) The aftermath - Sometimes it takes years before its settled. This is where the 20/20 hind sight guys have a field day. Would either team like a re-do on the trade?

          Answering #1 - I can say at the time of the trade - it was good for both teams /nobody was fleeced, and it made sense
          Answering #2 - evaluating the impact of the trade on Mets vs. Giants. I have to give the edge to the Mets winning this one. Beltran was injured and the Giants didn't make the playoffs. I think despite Wheelers injuries they still rather have Wheeler than a rented Beltran that missed time and missed the playoffs.

          Whatever Beltran did later on with the Cards/Yanks/Texas/Houston is irrelevant. This was a Met - Giant trade.

          Also don't forget the animosity Beltran felt for this horribly run organization - he HAD to go.


          Comment


          • #6
            Justin Turner was a similar situation to Carlos Beltran. He had to go. Murphy wanted to play for the Mets and was surprised when they offered him nothing. At the time, no one, including Murphy thought he'd turn into the player he has become. Hindsight is 20/20.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
              Justin Turner was a similar situation to Carlos Beltran. He had to go. Murphy wanted to play for the Mets and was surprised when they offered him nothing. At the time, no one, including Murphy thought he'd turn into the player he has become. Hindsight is 20/20.
              Agreed. I do not kill the Mets for Turner. I actually blame Turner for what happened to Turner on the Mets.

              On the other hand I wish the Mets had offered Murphy a contract. With that said if Murphy knew he turned a corner he would have accepted the $16MM QO from the Mets - made $8MM more than he did in 2016, and signed a $100MM contract this past off season.

              Like you said nobody knew Murphy was this player --- not even Murphy.

              Two very different stories Murphy/Turner -- with similar outcomes.
              Last edited by Paulypal; 07-05-2017, 12:42 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                Agreed. I do not kill the Mets for Turner. I actually blame Turner for what happened to Turner on the Mets.
                What exactly are you blaming Turner for? He was an excellent, progressively improving player for the Mets.

                Go ahead: kill the Mets for Turner. They deserve it.

                The only reason he "had to go" was Fred was pinching pennies super-hard that off-season and he was arbitration eligible.

                Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                On the other hand I wish the Mets had offered Murphy a contract. With that said if Murphy knew he turned a corner he would have accepted the $16MM QO from the Mets - made $8MM more than he did in 2016, and signed a $100MM contract this past off season.

                Like you said nobody knew Murphy was this player --- not even Murphy.

                Two very different stories Murphy/Turner -- with similar outcomes.
                "Nobody knew Murphy was this player"?

                I did. So did some analysts at Fangraphs.

                Maverick took the two best hitters in the NL - literally - and first went out of the organization to find Brad Emaus to start over them, and then gave them away for nothing. This man is the worst talent evaluator in baseball today. His drafts tell much the same story.

                But what does anybody expect?

                He's not a baseball man, he's an attorney.

                By the way, congratulations to Murphy; his 4 hit, 5 RBI game against the Mets raised his career BA to .300. Being a career .300 hitter's no small thing. Most of that was achieved as a Met.


                "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Turner was a 28 year old who had neither exceeded a 100 ops+ nor 120 games. He wasn't a terrible hitter but at that point he was a utility player with a career high of about 1 WAR. Can't fault the Mets here, he just took off when moved to the dodgers.

                  Murphy was always a good hitter but he was a question able defender just turned 30. He started to develope some pop but you couldn't possibly assume he would keep that up or even improve.

                  the more realistic assumption would have been that he stays about a 110 ops+ guy or even starts to decline a little and while that is very good for 2b his defense negated much of that so that he was about a league average player. In his final Mets year he was a 2.5 win player including his hot second half.

                  so what do you offer that player? Now he proceeded to always hit like in the second half of 2015 but no serious analyst would have said that. I'm sure that there were Mets fans who believed back then that 30 year old murphy has found another gear but that probably was founded more in being a fan than in actual data.
                  I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

                    What exactly are you blaming Turner for? He was an excellent, progressively improving player for the Mets.

                    Go ahead: kill the Mets for Turner. They deserve it.

                    The only reason he "had to go" was Fred was pinching pennies super-hard that off-season and he was arbitration eligible.



                    "Nobody knew Murphy was this player"?

                    I did. So did some analysts at Fangraphs.

                    Maverick took the two best hitters in the NL - literally - and first went out of the organization to find Brad Emaus to start over them, and then gave them away for nothing. This man is the worst talent evaluator in baseball today. His drafts tell much the same story.

                    But what does anybody expect?

                    He's not a baseball man, he's an attorney.

                    By the way, congratulations to Murphy; his 4 hit, 5 RBI game against the Mets raised his career BA to .300. Being a career .300 hitter's no small thing. Most of that was achieved as a Met.
                    Turner was not a good Met. Nuff said there. the proof is in the pudding.

                    Murphy was a good hitter with the Mets but NOBODY saw this coming...Sorry Mongoose - he exceeded your expectations also. So you can revel in the fact that you were right on Murphy which I give you kudos for all the time, but this good? No ....sorry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blue387 View Post

                      Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran was pretty good. Also, drafting guys like Michael Fulmer and Michael Conforto were also good moves.
                      You might want to rethink this one.. Beltran is still playing and will go to the PO's this year as a member of the 'Stros.. Where is Wheeler??
                      North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla :atthepc

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post

                        You might want to rethink this one.. Beltran is still playing and will go to the PO's this year as a member of the 'Stros.. Where is Wheeler??
                        Beltran is a 40 year old 16mil a year DH. Wheeler is making 800k. Beltran has been an AL player for years now. He could be a HOFer but today he has no place to be except the AL.

                        Wheeler is either a bust or an MLB player. Only one of them has a future past 2017.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dominik View Post
                          Turner was a 28 year old who had neither exceeded a 100 ops+ nor 120 games. He wasn't a terrible hitter but at that point he was a utility player with a career high of about 1 WAR. Can't fault the Mets here, he just took off when moved to the dodgers.

                          Murphy was always a good hitter but he was a question able defender just turned 30. He started to develope some pop but you couldn't possibly assume he would keep that up or even improve.

                          the more realistic assumption would have been that he stays about a 110 ops+ guy or even starts to decline a little and while that is very good for 2b his defense negated much of that so that he was about a league average player. In his final Mets year he was a 2.5 win player including his hot second half.

                          so what do you offer that player? Now he proceeded to always hit like in the second half of 2015 but no serious analyst would have said that. I'm sure that there were Mets fans who believed back then that 30 year old murphy has found another gear but that probably was founded more in being a fan than in actual data.
                          I don't focus on conventional stats when evaluating a player as much as batted ball data. Murphy and Turner were exceptional at squaring up the ball. What indicated Murphy and Turner had a higher ceiling was the increase in their hard hit percentages.

                          Turner increased his hard hit % significantly every season as a Met, but "Citi" Field/low BABIP/SSS suppressed any noticeable increase in power. Turner's batted ball/hard hit numbers were almost identical in his breakout year of 2014 with the Dodgers, as they were in 2013 with the Mets. The big difference was high BABIP in 2014, which could be considered an equalization to the norm from lower than expected numbers previously.

                          According to the eye test I knew Turner was a very good ballplayer, but I never predicted him to be elite. I thought he could be a solid MLB starter. The only players on the Mets I thought were better were both ahead of him in my depth chart: Wright at 3B and Murphy at 2B.

                          Murphy was a different story. I was point blank asked how I thought he'd do in 2016. I predicted a BA between .310 and .330 with 20+ HR and 40+ doubles. I underestimated him, but not by very much. His batted ball data indicated such excellence. His contact data meant few dead outs by strikeout.

                          The "pop" he'd developed was the consequence of profound changes in his hitting approach and was sustainable. It was reported in a feature article in Fangraphs prior to the end of the post-season, so the Maverick had plenty of opportunity to understand and act accordingly. As has been so often the case, he didn't.


                          "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There really was a guy at fangraphs who saw that coming.

                            http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/lets-...daniel-murphy/

                            but there still was age and defense that had to be considered. His batted ball quality was always good but he still isn't a slugger. His exit velo is a bit above average but not much. What made him so much more productive was that he now hits so many balls at good launch angles and of course he avoids bad contact (weak grounders, pop ups) very well.
                            I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              http://pagesix.com/tag/matt-harvey/

                              Sandy Alderson on where Matt Harvey is in his recovery: "You mean where he is other than Page 6?"

                              I believe myself and Pauly were the first two , way back when, to note Harvey's love of the nightlife: rink side at the Rangers. court side at the Knicks.... maybe now the Maverick believes it too?.

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X