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  • Carlos Beltran announces his retirement

    At age 40 and a wonderful career, Beltran announces his retirement. He finally won his WS ring. The HOF voting can commence in 5 years. A life well lived so far.

  • #2
    Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    At age 40 and a wonderful career, Beltran announces his retirement. He finally won his WS ring. The HOF voting can commence in 5 years. A life well lived so far.
    An excellent player and probably the best everyday player the Mets ever had.

    I do not think he is a HOF'er myself but he has a higher lifetime WAR than Andre Dawson. Beltran will get in (probably). It will be interesting to see.

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    • #3
      A few years ago there was a poster here who passionately argued the only way Beltran would get inside the Hall of Fame was to buy a ticket. I said, at the time, that he was already a borderline Hall of Famer. He had a few more good seasons, and now has good enough counting stats to get in, I think. He capped his career by winning the Astros the World Series, since he supposedly told the rest of the team how Yu Darvish was tipping his pitches.

      He was always soft spoken and gentlemanly. The booing in 2005 got to him and Julio Franco had to talk him in to taking a curtain call his first home run of 2006. Then there was the strikeout to end that season. Then there was Jeffy threatening to void his contract. I remember the Walter Reed incident. You can't say his time with the Mets was a storybook part of his career. He did have his best seasons here. I always thought he was underrated, which was unfortunate. I think he'll be warmly remembered by Mets fans and his "legend" will grow.

      I wonder if he'll be inducted into the Mets Hall of Fame if/when he makes it to Cooperstown? It'd be funny if he went in wearing a Mets cap on his plaque and didn't get into the team's HOF. I believe his relationship with the COO is not fond.


      "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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      • #4
        Just hit me that Beltran and Johnny Damon both started their careers in KC, but it doesn't seem to me that either one is really thought of at all as a Royal. I didn't even remember that Beltran started the 2004 season in KC before being traded to Houston and absolutely catching fire in the postseason. It's pretty easy to argue that Damon's peak was in KC, Beltran peaked after he left.
        "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

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        • #5
          I think he is a top 8-15 all time CFer, which after nearly 159=0 years of baseball should make him a HOFer. His problems are that he was a broadbased talent who did not stick with one team. The one thing he did extraordinarily is steal bases at a high percentage. That is nothing that will get you in the HOF. He won't have the 500 HR or 3000 H that will get two other "never really had more than a season or two as an MVP candidate" guys Jim Thome or Adrian Beltre into the HOF.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
            Just hit me that Beltran and Johnny Damon both started their careers in KC, but it doesn't seem to me that either one is really thought of at all as a Royal. I didn't even remember that Beltran started the 2004 season in KC before being traded to Houston and absolutely catching fire in the postseason. It's pretty easy to argue that Damon's peak was in KC, Beltran peaked after he left.
            Beltran was the Rookie of the Year in the AL in 1999 with the Kansas City Royals and he played there until mid 2004. That's his 2nd longest stay besides the Mets.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
              I think he is a top 8-15 all time CFer, which after nearly 159=0 years of baseball should make him a HOFer. His problems are that he was a broadbased talent who did not stick with one team. The one thing he did extraordinarily is steal bases at a high percentage. That is nothing that will get you in the HOF. He won't have the 500 HR or 3000 H that will get two other "never really had more than a season or two as an MVP candidate" guys Jim Thome or Adrian Beltre into the HOF.
              My problem with HOF bid is that he was never "that guy", He never led the league in any category. There is no bold black ink on his Baseball Reference page. (I know that sounds like Chris Russo (Maddog)) but I believe in that.

              He compiled some nice numbers but his HR total, and his % numbers are just no HOF worthy to me.

              It amazes me that players like Dawson are in, Beltran will be strongly considered and Albert Belle never gets a mention. The HOF is just way too subjective to really mean anything.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                A few years ago there was a poster here who passionately argued the only way Beltran would get inside the Hall of Fame was to buy a ticket. I said, at the time, that he was already a borderline Hall of Famer. He had a few more good seasons, and now has good enough counting stats to get in, I think. He capped his career by winning the Astros the World Series, since he supposedly told the rest of the team how Yu Darvish was tipping his pitches.

                He was always soft spoken and gentlemanly. The booing in 2005 got to him and Julio Franco had to talk him in to taking a curtain call his first home run of 2006. Then there was the strikeout to end that season. Then there was Jeffy threatening to void his contract. I remember the Walter Reed incident. You can't say his time with the Mets was a storybook part of his career. He did have his best seasons here. I always thought he was underrated, which was unfortunate. I think he'll be warmly remembered by Mets fans and his "legend" will grow.

                I wonder if he'll be inducted into the Mets Hall of Fame if/when he makes it to Cooperstown? It'd be funny if he went in wearing a Mets cap on his plaque and didn't get into the team's HOF. I believe his relationship with the COO is not fond.
                His RBI's and Runs are good enough, but again its so subjective because those are lineup dependent. His % stats are not HOF worthy (again in my opinion - I cite Albert Belle). Beltran has a slightly lower OPS than Matt Carpenter of the Cards who is not a HOF'er in my opinion.

                Again - I probably am a tough grader for the HOF because its no the Hall of Very Good -- its not "just let anyone good in" It should be the best players that have dominated their era. Beltran was good but just under the dominant level for an era.

                I just don't see it. He had 3-4 HOF seasons 2003. 2004. 2006 standout to me, but it takes a career.
                Last edited by Paulypal; 11-13-2017, 11:25 AM.

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                • #9
                  So Pauly I take it that to use recent pitchers as an example you would be yes to : Maddux, Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Mariano and maybe Halladay and among active guys presumable Kershaw barring an implosion that would make Lincecum and Barry Zito blush.

                  The next tier of guys like Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling, Mussina and Verlander are "just a bit outside". Johan needed to last a little longer.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                    So Pauly I take it that to use recent pitchers as an example you would be yes to : Maddux, Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Mariano and maybe Halladay and among active guys presumable Kershaw barring an implosion that would make Lincecum and Barry Zito blush.

                    The next tier of guys like Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling, Mussina and Verlander are "just a bit outside". Johan needed to last a little longer.
                    Glavine - is a Yes for me 305-203 W/L (although he and Maddux pitched to a different strike zone) 300 wins probably will never happen again so we have to say yes to Glavine = despite the 40" wide strike zone.

                    Smoltz - another yes although not as much as a lock, but he was a dominant starter that won a CY Young and then moved to the bullpen and several 40+ save seasons (leading the league once) Then went back to starting. He barely gets in in my opinion but because of the bullpen move and he actually did win a deserved Cy Young - ok.

                    Schilling -- Very similar to Smoltz but misses the cut. Similar regular season numbers, and although he had a great post season career its not that much better than Smoltz's and Smoltz moved to the pen and was also great. Schilling had the "bloody sock game" (which means what exactly) but Smoltz had one of the greatest post season games ever pitched against Morris in 1991.

                    Mussina - I can also make a case for Mussina and would put him in way way ahead of Schilling. 270-153 and pitched in the best division in baseball his whole career during the peak of the roid era (roids still exist but lets call it that). Considering where and when he pitched his career ERA of 3.68 is MUCH more impressive than 3.33 or Schillings of 3.46

                    Verlander - He needs more than he has now at 188-114, but with the Cy and the MVP under his belt plus consider his dominance over 7-8 year period he will get in if he gets to 220-230 wins

                    Johan - No -- two Cy's and a great peak but just way too short 139 wins isn't going in.



                    All my opinion and makes for good debate. I know some folks that think Schilling is a HOF'er, and will say "hell no" to Mussina

                    Unlike the majority of the Saber crowd I still have wins as a very important pitching stat. They will tell you W's are not important but its funny how the best pitchers always end up with the most. Yes there is always the anomaly like 2010 Felix Hernandez.
                    Last edited by Paulypal; 11-13-2017, 12:41 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Beltran had 3 MVP level seasons and 10 AS level seasons according to WAA and WAR. JAWS places him 8th all time among CF. I personally put him in the top 12-15 CFs of all time which is HOF level.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                        Beltran had 3 MVP level seasons and 10 AS level seasons according to WAA and WAR. JAWS places him 8th all time among CF. I personally put him in the top 12-15 CFs of all time which is HOF level.
                        I can see the argument - he just doesn't have enough in my opinion. He loses it for me right here :
                        .279 .350 .486 .837
                        I always look more at the %'s - especially with hitters than I do the counting numbers. If I didn't see the name and saw those % numbers I would say "really good player", but not a HOF'er unless it was a middle infielder.


                        Jeff Kent
                        .290 .356 .500 .855
                        . Tops Beltran in everyone

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                        • #13
                          I'll copy/paste this from the off-season thread, since I posted there about this without seeing it had its own thread:

                          While I and probably every other Mets fan has his called third strike in the 2006 NLCS at the forefront of our minds with him, he WAS one of the organization's better players the past 20 years.

                          From 2005 with the Mets until his trade in 2011:
                          839 games, 551 runs, 878 hits 208 doubles 17 triples 149 HRs, 559 RBIs .280 average and was on average 4.6 Wins Above Replacement
                          Not a bad line.

                          9-time All-Star (5 with the Mets) with 2 Silver Sluggers and 3 Golden Gloves (all with the Mets.)

                          While he only had 3 hits in 21 plate appearances this postseason for the Astros, 2 of which went to helping them beat the Red Sox in the ALCS, and his line was all 0's this World Series...and there's that strikeout we remember...he WAS a pretty good postseason hitter overall, hitting .307 in 65 games with 66 hits, 15 doubles, 1 triple, 16 HRs, and 42 RBIs.

                          He WILL get a look in five years come Hall of Fame time...I'll definitely root for him, but he's definitely a borderline case (which is nothing against him, a borderline HOF case is a pretty damn great career.) I get the feeling he's the kind of guy who might hang around on the ballot a bit but fall off eventually...if he DOES get in, it'll be his postseason numbers which tip the scales, and while he isn't as arguably-historically dominant in that regard as Schilling is, Beltrans regular season portfolio is WAAAAAAY BETTER...

                          If Schilling gets in, it'll be because voters (fair or foul) lean on his repeatedly historically-great postseason performances and big moments.
                          If Beltran gets in, it'll be because he already had some good numbers and the great postseason numbers are what tip a 50/50 shot in his favor.
                          Big difference.

                          Either way, earning your way into that conversation for a few years at least is a pretty big accomplishment in and of itself, and we'll see if he does get in. If he does, after Seaver and Piazza and probably Carter (fewer years, but obviously won a ring with us) he'd arguably be the Mets' next biggest representative in Cooperstown, with most of his seasons split between KC and the Mets--7 apiece--and he gave each most of his best seasons.
                          "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                            You can't say his time with the Mets was a storybook part of his career. He did have his best seasons here. I always thought he was underrated, which was unfortunate. I think he'll be warmly remembered by Mets fans and his "legend" will grow.

                            I wonder if he'll be inducted into the Mets Hall of Fame if/when he makes it to Cooperstown? It'd be funny if he went in wearing a Mets cap on his plaque and didn't get into the team's HOF. I believe his relationship with the COO is not fond.
                            Beltran's relationship with the Mets is interesting, kind of the opposite of Piazza's split between the Dodgers/Mets--spent significant time with both, but had the more positive moments and memories with the latter, while the former he left on more acrimonious circumstances, and while Piazza's always talked about among Mets fans, not so in Dodgertown.

                            By contrast, Beltran split about equal time with the Royals and Mets (spent 44 more games with us)...on the one hand, all of his Silver Sluggers and Gold Gloves came with us, as well as 5/9 of his All-Star appearances, so it IS fair to say the biggest chunk of his HOF resume--albeit one split between the Mets/Royals, and to a lesser extent the Astros, Cardinals, and Yankees, as he barely played for the Giants--WAS in Orange and Blue. ON THE OTHER HAND, however, in the same way Piazza's stats are pretty split between the Dodgers and Mets but big moments and a good relationship tilted him to the Mets' side, there's no question Beltran left under less than ideal circumstances, and while he's a class act himself and it is fair to say over time his view of himself as an all-time Met and fans' view of him will grow/repair...is that really the team he's going to want representing him in Cooperstown?

                            But then again, whom else would he choose? Only 1 All-Star appearance and the ROY award with the Royals in his 7 years there...if the HOF committee didn't let Gary Carter split his cap between the Expos and Mets or just pick the Mets for his 5 years plus a title with New York vs. the 12 years in Montreal, Beltran going in as a Royal seems iffy...even though his two seasons in Houston were both deep, memorable playoff runs and netted him a WS ring, no way they let 2 years get represented on the cap for a 20 year career.

                            Honestly, if he doesn't go in as a Met, he probably IS a guy best served with a "blank" cap...that being said, I think it IS absurd that the HOF doesn't let players split their caps the way Gary Carter wanted that Expos/Mets split...why? What's wrong with that? A split cap, well-sculpted, would be perfectly aesthetically-pleasing, and for guys like Carter/Beltran/Frank Robinson/etc., a split cap DOES better represent their career legacy...

                            Probably won't happen, but in my opinion a split Royals/Mets cap would be the best and most "accurate" account of Carlos Beltran's career and of how most people remember him.
                            "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                              Johan - No -- two Cy's and a great peak but just way too short 139 wins isn't going in.
                              Probably true, sadly...

                              His supporters will give the Sandy Koufax Exception as a defense, and while he probably is one of the more compelling candidates to get that defense since Sandy got in (in fairness, Santana probably WAS Best Pitcher in Baseball material at his peak) the traditional numbers, at least, aren't there--

                              Taking the vast majority of Johan's career, 2003 to 2012, of which 2004 to 2009 are the peak:

                              128-69 with an ERA of 3.02 and 1559 strikeouts, with 4 All-Star Games, 2 Cy Youngs, 1 Golden Glove, 1 No-Hitter, 3 ERA Titles.

                              Taking Sandy during the HOF peak of his career, 1961 to 1966:

                              129-47 with an ERA of 2.19 and 1713 strikeouts, with 6 All-Star Games, 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP Award, 5 ERA Titles, 4 No-Hitters (of which 1 was a Perfect Game, "Two and Two to Harvey Kuenn...") 2 World Series rings, 2 World Series MVPs, a 4-3 record with an 0.95 ERA with 61 strikeouts vs. 11 walks over his entire World Series career, and for the drama factor, famously missing Game 1 of the 1965 World Series for Yom Kippur before winning Game 7 with a 3-hit, 10-strikeout shutout victory, one of the greatest personal performances in World Series history.

                              Not even close. In fairness, "not even close" describes 90% of pitchers who've ever played with respect to Sandy's incredible six-year stretch, which is WHY he's the exception to the rule, which is fine, when it comes to things like the HOF, "rules" should have "exceptions"--but they must be truly EXCEPTIONAL. And Sandy was.

                              Even accounting for it being a different era with respect to bullpen pitchers' impact on the game, and how many starters' wins are lost by bullpens...it's just not there. Even taking into account the lack of offense Santana received playing in for the Twins and Mets--Sandy played in the pitching-dominant, often offense-scanty 60s, and for the 60s Dodgers at that--he didn't have Duke and Jackie and Pee Wee and Gil to slug out some runs for him during THOSE years.

                              By comparison, Doc Gooden from 1984 to 1991:

                              132-53 with an ERA of 2.91 1541 strikeouts, with 4 All-Star Games, 1 Cy Young, and an ERA Title.

                              MUCH closer to Santana, I'd argue, ALSO considered Best Pitcher in Baseball material for some of that time, and while Santana has an extra Cy Young and a No-Hitter to his credit, even factoring in his entire career, which would include 194 wins and 3 WS rings, the Hall of Fame's already said no to Gooden...

                              He and Santana are two pitchers that definitely looked HOF-bound but just aren't quite there, probably, sadly...and put side by side, you can see how their numbers, while very impressive for their own peaks, just AREN'T the same as the truly EXCEPTIONAL standard of the Sandy Koufax Exception.
                              Last edited by Shea Knight; 11-14-2017, 01:55 PM.
                              "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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