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  • #16
    Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
    MUCH closer to Santana, I'd argue, ALSO considered Best Pitcher in Baseball material for some of that time, and while Santana has an extra Cy Young and a No-Hitter to his credit, even factoring in his entire career, which would include 194 wins and 3 WS rings, the Hall of Fame's already said no to Gooden...
    First off Gooden has a no hitter ...weren't sure if you were saying he doesn't here but want to clarify. He had a no hitter with the Yanks in 1996. I was watching it saying "what if".


    Funny how these things work out. Its funny that no matter what really happened on the field we only remember the way it was scribed.

    For example - Johan's no hitter ---- not really a no hitter now was it? Yes it is written that way, but we all know Beltrans ball down the line was fair by enough to not be questioned.

    On the other hand there was a game in September 1984 Gooden was credited with a one hitter against the Cubs. Keith Moreland hit a ball to Ray Knight that Knight threw high to first and pulled Hernandez off the bag. They gave Moreland a hit. It was early in the game. That was the only "hit" they got. If that play happens in the late innings they give Knight the error (rightfully so) and Gooden throws the only no hitter in Met history.....to this day.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 11-14-2017, 09:58 AM.

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    • #17
      I think Beltran still lives in the NY area. Post playing, I wonder if he’d consider a coaching career here?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

        First off Gooden has a no hitter ...weren't sure if you were saying he doesn't here but want to clarify. He had a no hitter with the Yanks in 1996. I was watching it saying "what if".


        Funny how these things work out. Its funny that no matter what really happened on the field we only remember the way it was scribed.

        For example - Johan's no hitter ---- not really a no hitter now was it? Yes it is written that way, but we all know Beltrans ball down the line was fair by enough to not be questioned.

        On the other hand there was a game in September 1984 Gooden was credited with a one hitter against the Cubs. Keith Moreland hit a ball to Ray Knight that Knight threw high to first and pulled Hernandez off the bag. They gave Moreland a hit. It was early in the game. That was the only "hit" they got. If that play happens in the late innings they give Knight the error (rightfully so) and Gooden throws the only no hitter in Met history.....to this day.
        I'd forgotten about Gooden's Yankee no-hitter.

        Yep, Johan has a "no-hitter" and Dickey only got a "one-hitter," when in all fairness Beltran's ball was probably fair and you could fairly argue for an error on the only hit Dickey gave up.
        Last edited by Shea Knight; 11-15-2017, 03:24 PM.
        "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
          I think Beltran still lives in the NY area. Post playing, I wonder if he’d consider a coaching career here?
          Supposedly, he is interested in the Yankee job. I don't think he will get it As for the Mets, I don't think he would work for Capn Jeff and crew. I think Beltran needs a little bit of experience first.
          North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla :atthepc

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          • #20
            Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post

            Supposedly, he is interested in the Yankee job. I don't think he will get it As for the Mets, I don't think he would work for Capn Jeff and crew. I think Beltran needs a little bit of experience first.
            On this very forum, fans blasted Beltran needlessly and relentlessly over that Wainwright curve. Yep, people who couldn't hit a whiffle ball were blasting Beltran for years on here. And when he didn't toe the company line and went to his own medical experts, there were people on this forum questioning his loyalty to the team. Of course, when he was traded for the can't miss Cy Young winning Wheeler, people were on here cheering it. ( And years later, when the Mets did the exact opposite by giving up Fullmer for Cespedes, that of course was a great move too. Only on baseball fever does a club do exact opposite moves 'Wheeler for Beltran' and 'Fullmer for Cepedes' and BOTH times the Mets were right.)

            Now that he retired, he gets the accolades.....probably from Mets fans who can dust off their Beltran uniforms just in case Cooperstown calls in 5 years. The same fans who blasted him after game 7 in 2006 will of course be cheering if he goes in as a Met.

            I said it then, I say it now, and I said it in between...Beltran was one of the top 5 Mets players in franchise history; they should have signed him in 2011, and told the Giants to keep Wheeler..

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mandrake View Post

              On this very forum, fans blasted Beltran needlessly and relentlessly over that Wainwright curve. Yep, people who couldn't hit a whiffle ball were blasting Beltran for years on here.
              As an admitted such past blaster--it wasn't the curve so much as the fact he didn't swing. If he'd swung and missed it wouldn't have become what it did...but everyone wants to see their team "go down swinging," including players.

              That obviously doesn't excuse it, of course, it WAS still stupid to blast Beltran over that, as more and more people have realized as the years have gone on and Wainwright became the pitcher he did and time heals all wounds (well, as much as they ever do for the Mets.) That's just to say that stupid though it was, it wasn't "Oh man, I could have hit that ball, how could Beltran not have hit it" but more a feeling of "Damn it, AT LEAST I woulda swung, why didn't he even swing?!" Which, again, eases with the rationality and perspective of context and time.
              "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mandrake View Post

                On this very forum, fans blasted Beltran needlessly and relentlessly over that Wainwright curve. Yep, people who couldn't hit a whiffle ball were blasting Beltran for years on here. And when he didn't toe the company line and went to his own medical experts, there were people on this forum questioning his loyalty to the team. Of course, when he was traded for the can't miss Cy Young winning Wheeler, people were on here cheering it. ( And years later, when the Mets did the exact opposite by giving up Fullmer for Cespedes, that of course was a great move too. Only on baseball fever does a club do exact opposite moves 'Wheeler for Beltran' and 'Fullmer for Cepedes' and BOTH times the Mets were right.)

                Now that he retired, he gets the accolades.....probably from Mets fans who can dust off their Beltran uniforms just in case Cooperstown calls in 5 years. The same fans who blasted him after game 7 in 2006 will of course be cheering if he goes in as a Met.

                I said it then, I say it now, and I said it in between...Beltran was one of the top 5 Mets players in franchise history; they should have signed him in 2011, and told the Giants to keep Wheeler..
                It pissed me off then and it pisses me off now whenever I hear a Met fan bash Beltran for taking that pitch. I wasn't big Beltran fan, but in all fairness that is not where they lost that game. Jose Valentin had the worst at bat in that game, but fans that only remember the last thing they see blame Beltran. Makes it easy I guess.

                Agree 100% those some people now want him to go in as a Met.....not so much for the love of Beltran, but its another guy going into the HOF as a Met............like it matters.

                The Mets were gifted when Piazza went in as a Met and that was only because of the fallout he had with the Dodgers when he left. Piazza was a better Dodger -- hands down.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post

                  As an admitted such past blaster--it wasn't the curve so much as the fact he didn't swing. If he'd swung and missed it wouldn't have become what it did...but everyone wants to see their team "go down swinging," including players.

                  That obviously doesn't excuse it, of course, it WAS still stupid to blast Beltran over that, as more and more people have realized as the years have gone on and Wainwright became the pitcher he did and time heals all wounds (well, as much as they ever do for the Mets.) That's just to say that stupid though it was, it wasn't "Oh man, I could have hit that ball, how could Beltran not have hit it" but more a feeling of "Damn it, AT LEAST I woulda swung, why didn't he even swing?!" Which, again, eases with the rationality and perspective of context and time.
                  You wouldn't have swung.....I wouldn't have swung. Wainwright at that time had the best curve ball in the majors.

                  Beltran was fooled by the best pitch in the game at that time. Yeah it sucked, but Beltran didn't suck because of it.

                  Sometimes you tip your cap to the opponent for being better than you that day or that at bat.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                    You wouldn't have swung.....I wouldn't have swung. Wainwright at that time had the best curve ball in the majors.

                    Beltran was fooled by the best pitch in the game at that time. Yeah it sucked, but Beltran didn't suck because of it.

                    Sometimes you tip your cap to the opponent for being better than you that day or that at bat.
                    Good point Pauly and I'm glad Carlos finally got his ring. I do wish it was as a Met!!
                    North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla :atthepc

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mandrake View Post

                      On this very forum, fans blasted Beltran needlessly and relentlessly over that Wainwright curve. Yep, people who couldn't hit a whiffle ball were blasting Beltran for years on here. And when he didn't toe the company line and went to his own medical experts, there were people on this forum questioning his loyalty to the team. Of course, when he was traded for the can't miss Cy Young winning Wheeler, people were on here cheering it. ( And years later, when the Mets did the exact opposite by giving up Fullmer for Cespedes, that of course was a great move too. Only on baseball fever does a club do exact opposite moves 'Wheeler for Beltran' and 'Fullmer for Cepedes' and BOTH times the Mets were right.)

                      Now that he retired, he gets the accolades.....probably from Mets fans who can dust off their Beltran uniforms just in case Cooperstown calls in 5 years. The same fans who blasted him after game 7 in 2006 will of course be cheering if he goes in as a Met.

                      I said it then, I say it now, and I said it in between...Beltran was one of the top 5 Mets players in franchise history; they should have signed him in 2011, and told the Giants to keep Wheeler..
                      Yes, you've been saying since the beginning the Mets should have kept Beltran. I've always agreed but not too vocally. Jeff had wanted to void his contract and publicly shamed him for not visiting patients at Walter Reed hospital (Beltran took the off day to visit a school he was building in Puerto Rico, so its not like he stiffed the servicemen because he was bad). But it's not like the Mets made the move to improve. They were in the middle of a payroll kill disguised as a rebuild.

                      Had they kept Beltran, Pagan, Reyes, with the emerging talent that blossomed from 2013 to 2015, the Mets could have contended most seasons from then until now.

                      I think, with the push to empower WAR acolytes in HOF voting, Beltran will probably get a plaque. The question becomes, were Rice and Dawson better players? No! Was Raines? I don't think so. Either way, WAR was one of the main things Raines had going for him and Beltran beats him.


                      "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

                        Yes, you've been saying since the beginning the Mets should have kept Beltran. I've always agreed but not too vocally. Jeff had wanted to void his contract and publicly shamed him for not visiting patients at Walter Reed hospital (Beltran took the off day to visit a school he was building in Puerto Rico, so its not like he stiffed the servicemen because he was bad). But it's not like the Mets made the move to improve. They were in the middle of a payroll kill disguised as a rebuild.

                        Had they kept Beltran, Pagan, Reyes, with the emerging talent that blossomed from 2013 to 2015, the Mets could have contended most seasons from then until now.

                        I think, with the push to empower WAR acolytes in HOF voting, Beltran will probably get a plaque. The question becomes, were Rice and Dawson better players? No! Was Raines? I don't think so. Either way, WAR was one of the main things Raines had going for him and Beltran beats him.
                        It's hindsight now, but Beltran could have moved from CF to Rf and then to LF...and probably first base at the end. I think he will eventually get into the HOF, but I am not sure he if was a very good player who compiled stats, or he was a hall of famer. I can live with him getting in or not. I still prefer Gil Hodges to get in .

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                        • #27
                          I know this is an old post, but when Beltran is elected to Cooperstown, does he wear a KC Hat or a NYM Hat?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                            I know this is an old post, but when Beltran is elected to Cooperstown, does he wear a KC Hat or a NYM Hat?
                            Beltran was a better Met, but the fact he is spoken about like a lock HOF'er is the bigger problem. He shouldnt be.

                            Beltran is not a big fan of Jeff and that may be the only thing that stops him from wearing a Met hat. Retired Met players dont seem to be fond of coming back.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                              I know this is an old post, but when Beltran is elected to Cooperstown, does he wear a KC Hat or a NYM Hat?
                              Unless he specifically requests Kansas City, then he'll go as an NYM.

                              He played more games in New York than KC. He had his best season with NYM (2006). He hit more HR, drove in more runs, and had more WAR with NYM. A lot of his legacy also involves the 2004 free agency hype, which ties him to NYM in baseball history.

                              I can't find or recall any statements by Beltran regarding which cap he wants. I know Piazza always said Mets from as early as 2003. But I haven't found anything from Beltran (has any writer ever asked him?)


                              Finally --- I don't think Beltran should get in the HOF. He was never regarded as a HOFer during his best years (2006-2008); he started getting that attention once he compiled the counting stats like 435 HR and 2725 hits. He was able to compile by getting 310 games as a DH (mostly in his later years).

                              If Beltran, then why not Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones?

                              But I think the voters will put him in undeservedly.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by redban View Post

                                Unless he specifically requests Kansas City, then he'll go as an NYM.

                                He played more games in New York than KC. He had his best season with NYM (2006). He hit more HR, drove in more runs, and had more WAR with NYM. A lot of his legacy also involves the 2004 free agency hype, which ties him to NYM in baseball history.

                                I can't find or recall any statements by Beltran regarding which cap he wants. I know Piazza always said Mets from as early as 2003. But I haven't found anything from Beltran (has any writer ever asked him?)


                                Finally --- I don't think Beltran should get in the HOF. He was never regarded as a HOFer during his best years (2006-2008); he started getting that attention once he compiled the counting stats like 435 HR and 2725 hits. He was able to compile by getting 310 games as a DH (mostly in his later years).

                                If Beltran, then why not Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones?

                                But I think the voters will put him in undeservedly.
                                Agreed.

                                The HOF is becoming full of players that in my opinion shouldnt be there. Beltran will be another one. Once Bill Mazeroswki was put in the HOF lost a lot of luster for a lot of people.

                                With Harold Baines getting in you can say "why not" a lot of players.

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