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Carlos Beltran announces his retirement

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  • #31
    After the giants like Mays, Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio and Mantle along with Griffey and Snider who had a better career? Admittedly there are guys who were primarily of played a lot of CF like Dawson, Edmonds, Jones, Murphy, Puckett,Bernie, Lynn, Otis, Cedeno, Wynn, Reggie Smith in our timeframe who were power hitting plus glove CFers. Then guys like damon, Lofton and Butler wer leadoff guys. I think his best seasons match up pretty well with any ones. Throwing in his career length, post season and baserunning and he should be at or about the head of the list. I guess it depend son if you want the Hall to just be for the no brainers.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
      After the giants like Mays, Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio and Mantle along with Griffey and Snider who had a better career? Admittedly there are guys who were primarily of played a lot of CF like Dawson, Edmonds, Jones, Murphy, Puckett,Bernie, Lynn, Otis, Cedeno, Wynn, Reggie Smith in our timeframe who were power hitting plus glove CFers. Then guys like damon, Lofton and Butler wer leadoff guys. I think his best seasons match up pretty well with any ones. Throwing in his career length, post season and baserunning and he should be at or about the head of the list. I guess it depend son if you want the Hall to just be for the no brainers.
      I think Beltran is better than all of them, but I still am not sure he is a HOF'er. That is my opinion. I know he will get in without a doubt. I dont think Dawson is a HOF'er either.

      Beltran never lead the league in anything.

      Capture 2.PNG

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

        I think Beltran is better than all of them, but I still am not sure he is a HOF'er. That is my opinion. I know he will get in without a doubt. I dont think Dawson is a HOF'er either.

        Beltran never lead the league in anything.

        Capture 2.PNG
        JAWS has Beltran at 9th all time at CF. That puts him in elite company. bbrefWAR has him in the top 100. HOF monitor has him +26. He was a 9X All Star and a + defensive player with career counting stats well within HOF territory. He also managed 33.8 WAA despite playing for 20 years. You have to believe the HOF should be slashed in half to exclude a player like that.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

          JAWS has Beltran at 9th all time at CF. That puts him in elite company. bbrefWAR has him in the top 100. HOF monitor has him +26. He was a 9X All Star and a + defensive player with career counting stats well within HOF territory. He also managed 33.8 WAA despite playing for 20 years. You have to believe the HOF should be slashed in half to exclude a player like that.
          I do believe it should be slashed/ Not sure about half but slashed.

          He will get in I am sure of it, but he shouldn't be a lock in my opinion. At best in my opinion he would be the lowest level player in the HOF. That is not an insult to Beltran - I know how good he was, but the HOF should be a special group. It has become so watered down now - everyone gets a trophy.

          The last few years have been a disgusting insult to HOF. Jack Morris, Harold Baines....I could keep going for days about the "good" players that get put in.

          I can make the argument that Bernie Williams had the better career but had 2000 lets PA's so he didn't compile as much. 7 years in a row of an OPS of .900+. He has the post season resume for sure. Bernie doesn't have the counting totals, but was arguably the best player on 5 WS teams. This isn't a Met/Yankee thing - Bernie just seemed to get ignored when he shouldn't have been.

          It all depends on what you value. Personally the counting numbers done mean as much to me as the % numbers. What impact did you have when you played instead of how long did you have any impact at all. That is my opinion.

          Bottom line I think Beltran is in pretty easy but in my opinion it shouldn't be easy.
          Last edited by Paulypal; 05-30-2019, 07:19 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

            I do believe it should be slashed/ Not sure about half but slashed.

            He will get in I am sure of it, but he shouldn't be a lock in my opinion. At best in my opinion he would be the lowest level player in the HOF. That is not an insult to Beltran - I know how good he was, but the HOF should be a special group. It has become so watered down now - everyone gets a trophy.

            The last few years have been a disgusting insult to HOF. Jack Morris, Harold Baines....I could keep going for days about the "good" players that get put in.

            I can make the argument that Bernie Williams had the better career but had 2000 lets PA's so he didn't compile as much. 7 years in a row of an OPS of .900+. He has the post season resume for sure. Bernie doesn't have the counting totals, but was arguably the best player on 5 WS teams. This isn't a Met/Yankee thing - Bernie just seemed to get ignored when he shouldn't have been.
            which is no
            It all depends on what you value. Personally the counting numbers done mean as much to me as the % numbers. What impact did you have when you played instead of how long did you have any impact at all. That is my opinion.

            Bottom line I think Beltran is in pretty easy but in my opinion it shouldn't be easy.
            I get where you are coming from, but Beltran was significantly better than Dawson, and light years ahead of Morris and Baines. He actually is close to Duke Snider in career numbers and is significantly better than Richie Ashburn who, IMO was also a clear HOFer.

            In JAWS, which is not perfect, here is where he ranks among CFers in the HOF. Much more below him than above him and everyone above him ranks in the inner circle of all time greats minus maybe Snider.:

            Willie Mays
            Ty Cobb
            Tris Speaker
            Mickey Mantle
            Ken Griffey Jr.
            Joe DiMaggio
            Duke Snider
            (Mike Trout)
            Carlos Beltran
            Richie Ashburn
            Andre Dawson
            Billy Hamilton
            Larry Doby
            Kirby Puckett
            Max Carey
            Earl Averill
            Earle Combs
            Edd Roush
            Hack Wilson
            Hugh Duffy
            Lloyd Waner

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            • #36
              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

              I get where you are coming from, but Beltran was significantly better than Dawson, and light years ahead of Morris and Baines. He actually is close to Duke Snider in career numbers and is significantly better than Richie Ashburn who, IMO was also a clear HOFer.

              In JAWS, which is not perfect, here is where he ranks among CFers in the HOF. Much more below him than above him and everyone above him ranks in the inner circle of all time greats minus maybe Snider.:

              Willie Mays
              Ty Cobb
              Tris Speaker
              Mickey Mantle
              Ken Griffey Jr.
              Joe DiMaggio
              Duke Snider
              (Mike Trout)
              Carlos Beltran
              Richie Ashburn
              Andre Dawson
              Billy Hamilton
              Larry Doby
              Kirby Puckett
              Max Carey
              Earl Averill
              Earle Combs
              Edd Roush
              Hack Wilson
              Hugh Duffy
              Lloyd Waner
              I do agree that he was a better player than Dawson - without a doubt, and looking at the Jaws list I can make a case that Beltran is right on the line of HOF players. Everyone above him is a no doubter and the guys below him are not HOF'ers with the exception of Billy Hamilton & Ashburn. Puckett is in and he shouldnt be. All my opinion of course.

              So after giving it some thought - Beltran probably wears a KC hat if he has anything to say about it. His disdain for the Wilpons will make him want the KC hat. Again my opinion. MLB may force him to have the Met cap on as everyone seems to kiss Fred's ass.
              Last edited by Paulypal; 05-31-2019, 07:29 AM.

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