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Carlos Beltran announces his retirement

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  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    I get where you are coming from, but Beltran was significantly better than Dawson, and light years ahead of Morris and Baines. He actually is close to Duke Snider in career numbers and is significantly better than Richie Ashburn who, IMO was also a clear HOFer.

    In JAWS, which is not perfect, here is where he ranks among CFers in the HOF. Much more below him than above him and everyone above him ranks in the inner circle of all time greats minus maybe Snider.:

    Willie Mays
    Ty Cobb
    Tris Speaker
    Mickey Mantle
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Joe DiMaggio
    Duke Snider
    (Mike Trout)
    Carlos Beltran
    Richie Ashburn
    Andre Dawson
    Billy Hamilton
    Larry Doby
    Kirby Puckett
    Max Carey
    Earl Averill
    Earle Combs
    Edd Roush
    Hack Wilson
    Hugh Duffy
    Lloyd Waner
    I do agree that he was a better player than Dawson - without a doubt, and looking at the Jaws list I can make a case that Beltran is right on the line of HOF players. Everyone above him is a no doubter and the guys below him are not HOF'ers with the exception of Billy Hamilton & Ashburn. Puckett is in and he shouldnt be. All my opinion of course.

    So after giving it some thought - Beltran probably wears a KC hat if he has anything to say about it. His disdain for the Wilpons will make him want the KC hat. Again my opinion. MLB may force him to have the Met cap on as everyone seems to kiss Fred's ass.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 05-31-2019, 07:29 AM.

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  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    I do believe it should be slashed/ Not sure about half but slashed.

    He will get in I am sure of it, but he shouldn't be a lock in my opinion. At best in my opinion he would be the lowest level player in the HOF. That is not an insult to Beltran - I know how good he was, but the HOF should be a special group. It has become so watered down now - everyone gets a trophy.

    The last few years have been a disgusting insult to HOF. Jack Morris, Harold Baines....I could keep going for days about the "good" players that get put in.

    I can make the argument that Bernie Williams had the better career but had 2000 lets PA's so he didn't compile as much. 7 years in a row of an OPS of .900+. He has the post season resume for sure. Bernie doesn't have the counting totals, but was arguably the best player on 5 WS teams. This isn't a Met/Yankee thing - Bernie just seemed to get ignored when he shouldn't have been.
    which is no
    It all depends on what you value. Personally the counting numbers done mean as much to me as the % numbers. What impact did you have when you played instead of how long did you have any impact at all. That is my opinion.

    Bottom line I think Beltran is in pretty easy but in my opinion it shouldn't be easy.
    I get where you are coming from, but Beltran was significantly better than Dawson, and light years ahead of Morris and Baines. He actually is close to Duke Snider in career numbers and is significantly better than Richie Ashburn who, IMO was also a clear HOFer.

    In JAWS, which is not perfect, here is where he ranks among CFers in the HOF. Much more below him than above him and everyone above him ranks in the inner circle of all time greats minus maybe Snider.:

    Willie Mays
    Ty Cobb
    Tris Speaker
    Mickey Mantle
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Joe DiMaggio
    Duke Snider
    (Mike Trout)
    Carlos Beltran
    Richie Ashburn
    Andre Dawson
    Billy Hamilton
    Larry Doby
    Kirby Puckett
    Max Carey
    Earl Averill
    Earle Combs
    Edd Roush
    Hack Wilson
    Hugh Duffy
    Lloyd Waner

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  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    JAWS has Beltran at 9th all time at CF. That puts him in elite company. bbrefWAR has him in the top 100. HOF monitor has him +26. He was a 9X All Star and a + defensive player with career counting stats well within HOF territory. He also managed 33.8 WAA despite playing for 20 years. You have to believe the HOF should be slashed in half to exclude a player like that.
    I do believe it should be slashed/ Not sure about half but slashed.

    He will get in I am sure of it, but he shouldn't be a lock in my opinion. At best in my opinion he would be the lowest level player in the HOF. That is not an insult to Beltran - I know how good he was, but the HOF should be a special group. It has become so watered down now - everyone gets a trophy.

    The last few years have been a disgusting insult to HOF. Jack Morris, Harold Baines....I could keep going for days about the "good" players that get put in.

    I can make the argument that Bernie Williams had the better career but had 2000 lets PA's so he didn't compile as much. 7 years in a row of an OPS of .900+. He has the post season resume for sure. Bernie doesn't have the counting totals, but was arguably the best player on 5 WS teams. This isn't a Met/Yankee thing - Bernie just seemed to get ignored when he shouldn't have been.

    It all depends on what you value. Personally the counting numbers done mean as much to me as the % numbers. What impact did you have when you played instead of how long did you have any impact at all. That is my opinion.

    Bottom line I think Beltran is in pretty easy but in my opinion it shouldn't be easy.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 05-30-2019, 07:19 PM.

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  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    I think Beltran is better than all of them, but I still am not sure he is a HOF'er. That is my opinion. I know he will get in without a doubt. I dont think Dawson is a HOF'er either.

    Beltran never lead the league in anything.

    Capture 2.PNG
    JAWS has Beltran at 9th all time at CF. That puts him in elite company. bbrefWAR has him in the top 100. HOF monitor has him +26. He was a 9X All Star and a + defensive player with career counting stats well within HOF territory. He also managed 33.8 WAA despite playing for 20 years. You have to believe the HOF should be slashed in half to exclude a player like that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    After the giants like Mays, Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio and Mantle along with Griffey and Snider who had a better career? Admittedly there are guys who were primarily of played a lot of CF like Dawson, Edmonds, Jones, Murphy, Puckett,Bernie, Lynn, Otis, Cedeno, Wynn, Reggie Smith in our timeframe who were power hitting plus glove CFers. Then guys like damon, Lofton and Butler wer leadoff guys. I think his best seasons match up pretty well with any ones. Throwing in his career length, post season and baserunning and he should be at or about the head of the list. I guess it depend son if you want the Hall to just be for the no brainers.
    I think Beltran is better than all of them, but I still am not sure he is a HOF'er. That is my opinion. I know he will get in without a doubt. I dont think Dawson is a HOF'er either.

    Beltran never lead the league in anything.

    Capture 2.PNG

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    After the giants like Mays, Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio and Mantle along with Griffey and Snider who had a better career? Admittedly there are guys who were primarily of played a lot of CF like Dawson, Edmonds, Jones, Murphy, Puckett,Bernie, Lynn, Otis, Cedeno, Wynn, Reggie Smith in our timeframe who were power hitting plus glove CFers. Then guys like damon, Lofton and Butler wer leadoff guys. I think his best seasons match up pretty well with any ones. Throwing in his career length, post season and baserunning and he should be at or about the head of the list. I guess it depend son if you want the Hall to just be for the no brainers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by redban View Post

    Unless he specifically requests Kansas City, then he'll go as an NYM.

    He played more games in New York than KC. He had his best season with NYM (2006). He hit more HR, drove in more runs, and had more WAR with NYM. A lot of his legacy also involves the 2004 free agency hype, which ties him to NYM in baseball history.

    I can't find or recall any statements by Beltran regarding which cap he wants. I know Piazza always said Mets from as early as 2003. But I haven't found anything from Beltran (has any writer ever asked him?)


    Finally --- I don't think Beltran should get in the HOF. He was never regarded as a HOFer during his best years (2006-2008); he started getting that attention once he compiled the counting stats like 435 HR and 2725 hits. He was able to compile by getting 310 games as a DH (mostly in his later years).

    If Beltran, then why not Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones?

    But I think the voters will put him in undeservedly.
    Agreed.

    The HOF is becoming full of players that in my opinion shouldnt be there. Beltran will be another one. Once Bill Mazeroswki was put in the HOF lost a lot of luster for a lot of people.

    With Harold Baines getting in you can say "why not" a lot of players.

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  • redban
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
    I know this is an old post, but when Beltran is elected to Cooperstown, does he wear a KC Hat or a NYM Hat?
    Unless he specifically requests Kansas City, then he'll go as an NYM.

    He played more games in New York than KC. He had his best season with NYM (2006). He hit more HR, drove in more runs, and had more WAR with NYM. A lot of his legacy also involves the 2004 free agency hype, which ties him to NYM in baseball history.

    I can't find or recall any statements by Beltran regarding which cap he wants. I know Piazza always said Mets from as early as 2003. But I haven't found anything from Beltran (has any writer ever asked him?)


    Finally --- I don't think Beltran should get in the HOF. He was never regarded as a HOFer during his best years (2006-2008); he started getting that attention once he compiled the counting stats like 435 HR and 2725 hits. He was able to compile by getting 310 games as a DH (mostly in his later years).

    If Beltran, then why not Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones?

    But I think the voters will put him in undeservedly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
    I know this is an old post, but when Beltran is elected to Cooperstown, does he wear a KC Hat or a NYM Hat?
    Beltran was a better Met, but the fact he is spoken about like a lock HOF'er is the bigger problem. He shouldnt be.

    Beltran is not a big fan of Jeff and that may be the only thing that stops him from wearing a Met hat. Retired Met players dont seem to be fond of coming back.

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  • jjpm74
    replied
    I know this is an old post, but when Beltran is elected to Cooperstown, does he wear a KC Hat or a NYM Hat?

    Leave a comment:


  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

    Yes, you've been saying since the beginning the Mets should have kept Beltran. I've always agreed but not too vocally. Jeff had wanted to void his contract and publicly shamed him for not visiting patients at Walter Reed hospital (Beltran took the off day to visit a school he was building in Puerto Rico, so its not like he stiffed the servicemen because he was bad). But it's not like the Mets made the move to improve. They were in the middle of a payroll kill disguised as a rebuild.

    Had they kept Beltran, Pagan, Reyes, with the emerging talent that blossomed from 2013 to 2015, the Mets could have contended most seasons from then until now.

    I think, with the push to empower WAR acolytes in HOF voting, Beltran will probably get a plaque. The question becomes, were Rice and Dawson better players? No! Was Raines? I don't think so. Either way, WAR was one of the main things Raines had going for him and Beltran beats him.
    It's hindsight now, but Beltran could have moved from CF to Rf and then to LF...and probably first base at the end. I think he will eventually get into the HOF, but I am not sure he if was a very good player who compiled stats, or he was a hall of famer. I can live with him getting in or not. I still prefer Gil Hodges to get in .

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post

    On this very forum, fans blasted Beltran needlessly and relentlessly over that Wainwright curve. Yep, people who couldn't hit a whiffle ball were blasting Beltran for years on here. And when he didn't toe the company line and went to his own medical experts, there were people on this forum questioning his loyalty to the team. Of course, when he was traded for the can't miss Cy Young winning Wheeler, people were on here cheering it. ( And years later, when the Mets did the exact opposite by giving up Fullmer for Cespedes, that of course was a great move too. Only on baseball fever does a club do exact opposite moves 'Wheeler for Beltran' and 'Fullmer for Cepedes' and BOTH times the Mets were right.)

    Now that he retired, he gets the accolades.....probably from Mets fans who can dust off their Beltran uniforms just in case Cooperstown calls in 5 years. The same fans who blasted him after game 7 in 2006 will of course be cheering if he goes in as a Met.

    I said it then, I say it now, and I said it in between...Beltran was one of the top 5 Mets players in franchise history; they should have signed him in 2011, and told the Giants to keep Wheeler..
    Yes, you've been saying since the beginning the Mets should have kept Beltran. I've always agreed but not too vocally. Jeff had wanted to void his contract and publicly shamed him for not visiting patients at Walter Reed hospital (Beltran took the off day to visit a school he was building in Puerto Rico, so its not like he stiffed the servicemen because he was bad). But it's not like the Mets made the move to improve. They were in the middle of a payroll kill disguised as a rebuild.

    Had they kept Beltran, Pagan, Reyes, with the emerging talent that blossomed from 2013 to 2015, the Mets could have contended most seasons from then until now.

    I think, with the push to empower WAR acolytes in HOF voting, Beltran will probably get a plaque. The question becomes, were Rice and Dawson better players? No! Was Raines? I don't think so. Either way, WAR was one of the main things Raines had going for him and Beltran beats him.

    Leave a comment:


  • brooklynboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    You wouldn't have swung.....I wouldn't have swung. Wainwright at that time had the best curve ball in the majors.

    Beltran was fooled by the best pitch in the game at that time. Yeah it sucked, but Beltran didn't suck because of it.

    Sometimes you tip your cap to the opponent for being better than you that day or that at bat.
    Good point Pauly and I'm glad Carlos finally got his ring. I do wish it was as a Met!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post

    As an admitted such past blaster--it wasn't the curve so much as the fact he didn't swing. If he'd swung and missed it wouldn't have become what it did...but everyone wants to see their team "go down swinging," including players.

    That obviously doesn't excuse it, of course, it WAS still stupid to blast Beltran over that, as more and more people have realized as the years have gone on and Wainwright became the pitcher he did and time heals all wounds (well, as much as they ever do for the Mets.) That's just to say that stupid though it was, it wasn't "Oh man, I could have hit that ball, how could Beltran not have hit it" but more a feeling of "Damn it, AT LEAST I woulda swung, why didn't he even swing?!" Which, again, eases with the rationality and perspective of context and time.
    You wouldn't have swung.....I wouldn't have swung. Wainwright at that time had the best curve ball in the majors.

    Beltran was fooled by the best pitch in the game at that time. Yeah it sucked, but Beltran didn't suck because of it.

    Sometimes you tip your cap to the opponent for being better than you that day or that at bat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post

    On this very forum, fans blasted Beltran needlessly and relentlessly over that Wainwright curve. Yep, people who couldn't hit a whiffle ball were blasting Beltran for years on here. And when he didn't toe the company line and went to his own medical experts, there were people on this forum questioning his loyalty to the team. Of course, when he was traded for the can't miss Cy Young winning Wheeler, people were on here cheering it. ( And years later, when the Mets did the exact opposite by giving up Fullmer for Cespedes, that of course was a great move too. Only on baseball fever does a club do exact opposite moves 'Wheeler for Beltran' and 'Fullmer for Cepedes' and BOTH times the Mets were right.)

    Now that he retired, he gets the accolades.....probably from Mets fans who can dust off their Beltran uniforms just in case Cooperstown calls in 5 years. The same fans who blasted him after game 7 in 2006 will of course be cheering if he goes in as a Met.

    I said it then, I say it now, and I said it in between...Beltran was one of the top 5 Mets players in franchise history; they should have signed him in 2011, and told the Giants to keep Wheeler..
    It pissed me off then and it pisses me off now whenever I hear a Met fan bash Beltran for taking that pitch. I wasn't big Beltran fan, but in all fairness that is not where they lost that game. Jose Valentin had the worst at bat in that game, but fans that only remember the last thing they see blame Beltran. Makes it easy I guess.

    Agree 100% those some people now want him to go in as a Met.....not so much for the love of Beltran, but its another guy going into the HOF as a Met............like it matters.

    The Mets were gifted when Piazza went in as a Met and that was only because of the fallout he had with the Dodgers when he left. Piazza was a better Dodger -- hands down.


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