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2018-2019 Mets Off Season Thread

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  • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

    Why? Because Fred and Jeff don't approve of him dating Instagram models? The guys who got rid of Dykstra, McDowell, Mitchell, Cone, Kasmir and more because they just didn't approve of them? Look at the returns they got in those trades. They just got swindled into taking on the last 5 years of Cano's contract, while making McNeil redundant. I don't want them touching the remaining talent on this team. Sign free agents, you cheap scum.
    They got rid of Justin Turner for less.
    The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

    Comment


    • One thing I never understood about the Wilpons is that they always go out and sign "veteran" players, usually washed up guys who are promised playing time. These are usually guys other teams have discarded, from guys like Mo Vaughn, Robert Alomar, etc. to more recent guys like Bobby Abreu, Michael Cuddyer and last year's Adrian Gonzalez signing. They don't trust young guys - Brandon Nimmo started the season in AAA, for pete's sake - and are terrible at scouting talent. They also end up signing these washed up guys to fill holes in the lineup that could have been filled had the Mets drafted and developed any decent talent or not stuck to slot for the longest time.

      I bet they were burned by the Generation K fiasco and learned the wrong lesson and will only go for "proven" talent instead of building a team around young players like the Atlanta Braves. That is the biggest thing I have against the Robinson Cano trade - they traded away some younger talent for a 36 year old veteran who's played in New York before. It's the same M.O. Freddy Wilpon always chose, go for the cheap veteran instead of the upside young kid.
      The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
        One thing I never understood about the Wilpons is that they always go out and sign "veteran" players, usually washed up guys who are promised playing time. These are usually guys other teams have discarded, from guys like Mo Vaughn, Robert Alomar, etc. to more recent guys like Bobby Abreu, Michael Cuddyer and last year's Adrian Gonzalez signing. They don't trust young guys - Brandon Nimmo started the season in AAA, for pete's sake - and are terrible at scouting talent. They also end up signing these washed up guys to fill holes in the lineup that could have been filled had the Mets drafted and developed any decent talent or not stuck to slot for the longest time.

        I bet they were burned by the Generation K fiasco and learned the wrong lesson and will only go for "proven" talent instead of building a team around young players like the Atlanta Braves. That is the biggest thing I have against the Robinson Cano trade - they traded away some younger talent for a 36 year old veteran who's played in New York before. It's the same M.O. Freddy Wilpon always chose, go for the cheap veteran instead of the upside young kid.
        I’m paying close attention to Peter Alonso. If he isn’t given an opportunity to play for the Mets then they want to develop and retain pitchers but not hitters.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
          One thing I never understood about the Wilpons is that they always go out and sign "veteran" players, usually washed up guys who are promised playing time. These are usually guys other teams have discarded, from guys like Mo Vaughn, Robert Alomar, etc. to more recent guys like Bobby Abreu, Michael Cuddyer and last year's Adrian Gonzalez signing. They don't trust young guys - Brandon Nimmo started the season in AAA, for pete's sake - and are terrible at scouting talent. They also end up signing these washed up guys to fill holes in the lineup that could have been filled had the Mets drafted and developed any decent talent or not stuck to slot for the longest time.

          I bet they were burned by the Generation K fiasco and learned the wrong lesson and will only go for "proven" talent instead of building a team around young players like the Atlanta Braves. That is the biggest thing I have against the Robinson Cano trade - they traded away some younger talent for a 36 year old veteran who's played in New York before. It's the same M.O. Freddy Wilpon always chose, go for the cheap veteran instead of the upside young kid.
          What young players have they dumped recently who went on to be great players? Murphy and Turner both had their flaws when they were on the Mets and were not young when they left the team. They have scouted a lot of pitching talent over that same span. More than a lot of other teams.

          Who is better than JT Realmuto out of Nummo, Conforto and Rosario?

          On a separate route, if this team's starting lineup next year was Pollock, Conforto, Harper in the outfield, Marwin Gonzalez, Robinson Cano, Jose Iglesias, and Frazier on the infield, JT Realmuto as C, the current SPs and David Robertson and a few minor RP signings to shore up the bullpen, I bet there would still be an uproar because Nimmo and Rosario were gone and if the team sat on their hands and kept them all, there would still be an uproar.

          It seems like the Mets are in on everything right now. That is a refreshing departure from 2016, 2017 and 2018. Let's see what they do beyond Cano and Diaz before we bring out the pitchforks and torches.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post

            I’m paying close attention to Peter Alonso. If he isn’t given an opportunity to play for the Mets then they want to develop and retain pitchers but not hitters.
            Alonso's future is as a DH in the American League. He's a perfect guy to trade.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post

              They got rid of Justin Turner for less.
              Turner didn't want to kick back any of his salary to Barwis and Jeff. He wanted to work on his hitting with Doug Latta. The nerve of him.

              Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
              One thing I never understood about the Wilpons is that they always go out and sign "veteran" players, usually washed up guys who are promised playing time. These are usually guys other teams have discarded, from guys like Mo Vaughn, Robert Alomar, etc. to more recent guys like Bobby Abreu, Michael Cuddyer and last year's Adrian Gonzalez signing. They don't trust young guys - Brandon Nimmo started the season in AAA, for pete's sake - and are terrible at scouting talent. They also end up signing these washed up guys to fill holes in the lineup that could have been filled had the Mets drafted and developed any decent talent or not stuck to slot for the longest time.

              I bet they were burned by the Generation K fiasco and learned the wrong lesson and will only go for "proven" talent instead of building a team around young players like the Atlanta Braves. That is the biggest thing I have against the Robinson Cano trade - they traded away some younger talent for a 36 year old veteran who's played in New York before. It's the same M.O. Freddy Wilpon always chose, go for the cheap veteran instead of the upside young kid.
              I think a player is automatically devalued if Fred and Jeff don't have their baseball card. Also, they think the fans are even more ignorant than they are, and sign names rather than players to put the "fannys" in the seats. Acquiring aging or otherwise devalued "name" players is a budget way of winning the back pages during the off-season. When I first heard the Cano trade might happen I joked that Fred was already getting the bobbleheads ready. Well...

              https://twitter.com/Mets/status/1070...p%3Ft%3D135026

              It's just how the Wilpons think. To them a Cano is a value added player because he can help Fred peddle $500K more tickets, sausages and beer for $75K in bobbleheads. That's their idea of team building strategy. Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar and Jason Bay might not have worked out, but you can bet Fred monetized them as bobbleheads before their Mets careers turned septic.

              Homegrown players falling by the wayside is a natural result. Signing Gonzales nullified whatever value Smith might have had. They wasted Flores' value by signing Walker and then moving Cabrera to 2B. Their most valuable infielder last season, by far, was McNeil, who now no longer has a position.

              It's no different than signing Bruce when they had Nimmo. And the veteran always plays, regardless of whether they're producing. It's the Wilpon formula.



              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

              What young players have they dumped recently who went on to be great players? Murphy and Turner both had their flaws when they were on the Mets and were not young when they left the team. They have scouted a lot of pitching talent over that same span. More than a lot of other teams.

              Who is better than JT Realmuto out of Nummo, Conforto and Rosario?

              On a separate route, if this team's starting lineup next year was Pollock, Conforto, Harper in the outfield, Marwin Gonzalez, Robinson Cano, Jose Iglesias, and Frazier on the infield, JT Realmuto as C, the current SPs and David Robertson and a few minor RP signings to shore up the bullpen, I bet there would still be an uproar because Nimmo and Rosario were gone and if the team sat on their hands and kept them all, there would still be an uproar.

              It seems like the Mets are in on everything right now. That is a refreshing departure from 2016, 2017 and 2018. Let's see what they do beyond Cano and Diaz before we bring out the pitchforks and torches.
              The young players aren't dumped. They just rot at AAA or on the bench. Whatever value they might provide is voided. Their career trajectories are damaged.

              Otherwise, Marwin Gonzales is basically Wilmer Flores with a moderately better walk rate and lesser contact skills. Not sure if Wilmer can play the outfield, but otherwise the offensive and defensive numbers are pretty similar. Pollock is injury prone and apparently declining. Iglesias and Frazier are not that good, and not getting any better. Harper isn't happening. Is Realmuto so much better than Ramos that he'd be worth giving up Nimmo or Rosario - who will probably improve if they stay healthy?

              The Mets don't have enough talent to give up any more in trade. Filling holes by creating others makes no sense. They must sign actual good free agents. That's the best way to avoid an "uproar".
              Last edited by Mongoose; 12-05-2018, 11:37 PM.


              "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

                Turner didn't want to kick back any of his salary to Barwis and Jeff. He wanted to work on his hitting with Doug Latta. The nerve of him.



                I think a player is automatically devalued if Fred and Jeff don't have their baseball card. Also, they think the fans are even more ignorant than they are, and sign names rather than players to put the "fannys" in the seats. Acquiring aging or otherwise devalued "name" players is a budget way of winning the back pages during the off-season. When I first heard the Cano trade might happen I joked that Fred was already getting the bobbleheads ready. Well...

                https://twitter.com/Mets/status/1070...p%3Ft%3D135026

                It's just how the Wilpons think. To them a Cano is a value added player because he can help Fred peddle $500K more tickets, sausages and beer for $75K in bobbleheads. That's their idea of team building strategy. Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar and Jason Bay might not have worked out, but you can bet Fred monetized them as bobbleheads before their Mets careers turned septic.

                Homegrown players falling by the wayside is a natural result. Signing Gonzales nullified whatever value Smith might have had. They wasted Flores' value by signing Walker and then moving Cabrera to 2B. Their most valuable infielder last season, by far, was McNeil, who now no longer has a position.

                It's no different than signing Bruce when they had Nimmo. And the veteran always plays, regardless of whether they're producing. It's the Wilpon formula.





                The young players aren't dumped. They just rot at AAA or on the bench. Whatever value they might provide is voided. Their career trajectories are damaged.

                Otherwise, Marwin Gonzales is basically Wilmer Flores with a moderately better walk rate and lesser contact skills. Not sure if Wilmer can play the outfield, but otherwise the offensive and defensive numbers are pretty similar. Pollock is injury prone and apparently declining. Iglesias and Frazier are not that good, and not getting any better. Harper isn't happening. Is Realmuto so much better than Ramos that he'd be worth giving up Nimmo or Rosario - who will probably improve if they stay healthy?

                The Mets don't have enough talent to give up any more in trade. Filling holes by creating others makes no sense. They must sign actual good free agents. That's the best way to avoid an "uproar".
                Mongoose, you're right, they don't have enough talent left to make a decent trade offer. The Wilpon formula is basically getting money into their pockets..They're really successful at that!!
                North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                  Alonso's future is as a DH in the American League. He's a perfect guy to trade.
                  There were two DH’s in the AL this past season with qualifying at bat’s- 38 yr old Nelson Cruz and 39 yr old Victor Martinez.
                  Maybe Alonso can end his career 15 yrs from now in the AL. In 2019 the Mets should give him a chance, even if he isn’t a pitcher.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post

                    They got rid of Justin Turner for less.
                    Justin Turner got rid of Justin Turner...just sayin

                    https://www.mlb.com/news/secret-behi...ut/c-132701636
                    Last edited by Paulypal; 12-06-2018, 07:28 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
                      One thing I never understood about the Wilpons is that they always go out and sign "veteran" players, usually washed up guys who are promised playing time. These are usually guys other teams have discarded, from guys like Mo Vaughn, Robert Alomar, etc. to more recent guys like Bobby Abreu, Michael Cuddyer and last year's Adrian Gonzalez signing. They don't trust young guys - Brandon Nimmo started the season in AAA, for pete's sake - and are terrible at scouting talent. They also end up signing these washed up guys to fill holes in the lineup that could have been filled had the Mets drafted and developed any decent talent or not stuck to slot for the longest time.

                      I bet they were burned by the Generation K fiasco and learned the wrong lesson and will only go for "proven" talent instead of building a team around young players like the Atlanta Braves. That is the biggest thing I have against the Robinson Cano trade - they traded away some younger talent for a 36 year old veteran who's played in New York before. It's the same M.O. Freddy Wilpon always chose, go for the cheap veteran instead of the upside young kid.
                      They traded away 100% unknowns for what is still a quality hitter....and oh yeah the best closer in the game. Two weeks ago it was fairly common knowledge that their minor league system was just not very good. They traded some of their prospects and now they gave up Mike Trout and Bryce Harper.

                      Nobody wanted to give up McNeil because he is the next Rod Carew.

                      That trade was every much about Diaz as it was about Cano. This seems to escape everyone.

                      They also were able to dump two useless salaries - another thing not mentioned.

                      All we hear about is the albatross that Cano's contract will be - which is true but it isnt the only thing that happened.

                      I bury this organization at every turn because they are just horrible. With that said they have made multiple moves over the last were infinitely worse. For instance:

                      $39MM for Jay Bruce
                      $17MM for Todd Frazier
                      $14MM for Swarzak
                      $22MM for Vargas

                      That is $92MM that was basically set on fire. Where was the outrage?
                      Last edited by Paulypal; 12-06-2018, 08:45 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                        What young players have they dumped recently who went on to be great players? Murphy and Turner both had their flaws when they were on the Mets and were not young when they left the team. They have scouted a lot of pitching talent over that same span. More than a lot of other teams.

                        Who is better than JT Realmuto out of Nummo, Conforto and Rosario?

                        On a separate route, if this team's starting lineup next year was Pollock, Conforto, Harper in the outfield, Marwin Gonzalez, Robinson Cano, Jose Iglesias, and Frazier on the infield, JT Realmuto as C, the current SPs and David Robertson and a few minor RP signings to shore up the bullpen, I bet there would still be an uproar because Nimmo and Rosario were gone and if the team sat on their hands and kept them all, there would still be an uproar.

                        It seems like the Mets are in on everything right now. That is a refreshing departure from 2016, 2017 and 2018. Let's see what they do beyond Cano and Diaz before we bring out the pitchforks and torches.
                        I agree with you here 100%. Great post.

                        With every player the Mets trade or release the fan base goes into panic mode like they gave away the ranch. Most of the fan base has no clue who they are. They just assume the Mets gave up too much. Meanwhile this team just doesnt produce talent.

                        As much as I hate most of what goes on with Mets I am willing to see how this off season plays out.

                        We are still hearing about Justin Turner....meanwhile if you follow the time line I cant blame the Mets for releasing him. We heard the same panic when Capt Kirk left, Duda, and Ike. Remember the "mistake" they made by not signing Reyes?? Great non sign.

                        The big mistake..................huge mistake was signing David Wright. The worst contract in the history of the franchise hands down........not close. I said in 2012 and stick by that. Yet the fan base was so proud to sign a guy 4 years past his prime in downward trend because he was the "Face"...Captain America...etc etc. Talk about flushing $138MM down the drain. I realize how blasphemous that is to say about anything to do with David Wright, but it is a fact.

                        Bottom line for me is ....so far I like what has been done. A lot more needs to happen. I am hoping it does happen and wont bury them until it doesnt happen.
                        Last edited by Paulypal; 12-06-2018, 09:30 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

                          The young players aren't dumped. They just rot at AAA or on the bench. Whatever value they might provide is voided. Their career trajectories are damaged.

                          Otherwise, Marwin Gonzales is basically Wilmer Flores with a moderately better walk rate and lesser contact skills. Not sure if Wilmer can play the outfield, but otherwise the offensive and defensive numbers are pretty similar. Pollock is injury prone and apparently declining. Iglesias and Frazier are not that good, and not getting any better. Harper isn't happening. Is Realmuto so much better than Ramos that he'd be worth giving up Nimmo or Rosario - who will probably improve if they stay healthy?

                          The Mets don't have enough talent to give up any more in trade. Filling holes by creating others makes no sense. They must sign actual good free agents. That's the best way to avoid an "uproar".
                          I can buy Rosario will get better, though Jimenez is apparently MLB ready according to some sources and has a much higher ceiling than Rosario at this point. What is the ceiling for Nimmo, honestly? He is going into his 4th MLB season and will be 26 and still seems rough around the edges. He is a nice player, but not a future HOFer. At his very best, he might be an All Star at some point. I know he is easy to like, but getting HBP, sprinting down to first base and then giving a finger up to God every time doesn't impress me. He is a good player, but no nearly as good (or valuable) as JT Realmuto who is one of the top 4 catchers currently in MLB, is great both offensively and defensively (unlike Ramos), and can also field first base well (again, unlike Ramos) so he does not have to be behind home plate every day and can be stretched out another 10-15 games more than a typical full time catcher in the NL without overly fatiguing him.

                          If the Marlins want Nimmo or Conforto for JT Realmuto, I definitely do the trade. If they want Rosario for Realmuto, I still do the trade, but do not package him with as much of a return back to the Marlins.

                          As far as the earlier post someone made about Realmuto being a Boras client and definitely walking into free agency when his contract is up, who cares? That is still 4 seasons away. He is under control for 3 more seasons and will only want to improve himself to make him more marketable when that day finally comes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                            I can buy Rosario will get better, though Jimenez is apparently MLB ready according to some sources and has a much higher ceiling than Rosario at this point. What is the ceiling for Nimmo, honestly? He is going into his 4th MLB season and will be 26 and still seems rough around the edges. He is a nice player, but not a future HOFer. At his very best, he might be an All Star at some point. I know he is easy to like, but getting HBP, sprinting down to first base and then giving a finger up to God every time doesn't impress me. He is a good player, but no nearly as good (or valuable) as JT Realmuto who is one of the top 4 catchers currently in MLB, is great both offensively and defensively (unlike Ramos), and can also field first base well (again, unlike Ramos) so he does not have to be behind home plate every day and can be stretched out another 10-15 games more than a typical full time catcher in the NL without overly fatiguing him.

                            If the Marlins want Nimmo or Conforto for JT Realmuto, I definitely do the trade. If they want Rosario for Realmuto, I still do the trade, but do not package him with as much of a return back to the Marlins.

                            As far as the earlier post someone made about Realmuto being a Boras client and definitely walking into free agency when his contract is up, who cares? That is still 4 seasons away. He is under control for 3 more seasons and will only want to improve himself to make him more marketable when that day finally comes.
                            Great point about FA way down the line. I package all 3 with the right return.
                            North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                              They traded away 100% unknowns for what is still a quality hitter....and oh yeah the best closer in the game. Two weeks ago it was fairly common knowledge that their minor league system was just not very good. They traded some of their prospects and now they gave up Mike Trout and Bryce Harper.

                              Nobody wanted to give up McNeil because he is the next Rod Carew.

                              That trade was every much about Diaz as it was about Cano. This seems to escape everyone.

                              They also were able to dump two useless salaries - another thing not mentioned.

                              All we hear about is the albatross that Cano's contract will be - which is true but it isnt the only thing that happened.

                              I bury this organization at every turn because they are just horrible. With that said they have made multiple moves over the last were infinitely worse. For instance:

                              $39MM for Jay Bruce
                              $17MM for Todd Frazier
                              $14MM for Swarzak
                              $22MM for Vargas

                              That is $92MM that was basically set on fire. Where was the outrage?
                              True and they were questioned at the time of the signings. That was the mindset of Sandy and the gang..The Mets will make many of these signings and push them off as great. In a couple of years, we might be saying the same thing about the trade.. Time will tell. Neither one of us trusts Capn Jeff to do the best thing so why worry?
                              North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

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                              • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                                I can buy Rosario will get better, though Jimenez is apparently MLB ready according to some sources and has a much higher ceiling than Rosario at this point. What is the ceiling for Nimmo, honestly? He is going into his 4th MLB season and will be 26 and still seems rough around the edges. He is a nice player, but not a future HOFer. At his very best, he might be an All Star at some point. I know he is easy to like, but getting HBP, sprinting down to first base and then giving a finger up to God every time doesn't impress me. He is a good player, but no nearly as good (or valuable) as JT Realmuto who is one of the top 4 catchers currently in MLB, is great both offensively and defensively (unlike Ramos), and can also field first base well (again, unlike Ramos) so he does not have to be behind home plate every day and can be stretched out another 10-15 games more than a typical full time catcher in the NL without overly fatiguing him.

                                If the Marlins want Nimmo or Conforto for JT Realmuto, I definitely do the trade. If they want Rosario for Realmuto, I still do the trade, but do not package him with as much of a return back to the Marlins.

                                As far as the earlier post someone made about Realmuto being a Boras client and definitely walking into free agency when his contract is up, who cares? That is still 4 seasons away. He is under control for 3 more seasons and will only want to improve himself to make him more marketable when that day finally comes.
                                You're right, Nimmo is rough around the edges. And in spite of that, he was 2nd in the league in OB%, 2nd in the league in adjusted OPS+, top ten in rWAR, 5th in their oWAR, 12th in fWAR... In just 535 PA! Imagine how good he'll be with a little more polish. The OB% is no fluke. He's done it at every level. Many predicted the power would come. It did.

                                The only free agent outfielder I can think of who could replace his long term value would be Harper. Brantley is 32 and is projected to get 3/$60M. A smart team keeps Nimmo, locks him up with a low cost extension now, and signs Ramos. Then there's plenty of money left to fill the remaining holes.

                                Rosario was the #1 prospect in baseball. Most experts believe his ceiling is very high.

                                For what it's worth, I don't think the Mets would have tendered d'Arnaud a contract if they didn't plan on keeping him. Knowing this organization, he'll probably be the 5th outfielder.


                                "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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