Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2018-2019 Mets Off Season Thread

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    The institution has a lowered value in my opinion by letting in players that don't belong...…..again in my opinion.

    When Mazeroski got in for basically taking one swing it showed major flaws in the whole system. These committees that vote their friend in (Baines for example) have made it the Hall of Good.

    Hank Aaron and Harold Baines are in the same baseball "club". Something is seriously wrong with that. Not everyone is Hank Aaron I understand but it shouldn't be like comparing a Mercedes Benz and a Honda.
    I think Mazeroski got in because of defense, but yeah, he is overall undeserving. As is Harold Baines. I could also add George "High Pockets" Kelly, Hack Wilson, Rabbit Maranville, Lloyd Waner, and so many others.


    But here's the thing --- while Biggio doesn't "belong," he's still not that far behind. From 1989 - 2001, he had
    • 119 OPS+
    • 60.6 WAR in 1905 games
    • 359 SB / 109 CS
    • 3 seasons in which he played catcher in 1989 - 1991. All-Star in 1991. Silver Slugger in 1989.

    He was also decent in 2003, & 2005; he played CF in 2003.

    For comparison, Alomar from 1988 - 2001 had
    • 121 OPS+
    • 67.3 WAR
    • 422 SB / 100 CS
    • 2034 games

    Yes -- these numbers show that Alomar was better. His peak was longer. He played better defense. He stole bases better. He was a better hitter.

    But the margin isn't so steep. Biggio's 119 OPS+ isn't far behind Alomar's 121 OPS+. His 359 SB is still plenty, even if less than 422. His 60.6 WAR is just 1.5 seasons behind Alomar's 67.3; his years as a catcher probably cuts that difference a little too.

    Biggio is only one notch below Alomar. And he had 3,000 hits. Had Biggio been kept out, he would be the best 2B not in the HOF, and he would be the benchmark for any future candidates (e.g. Cano, Pedrioria, Kinsler). That's why Biggio's inclusion to the HOF doesn't hurt it's credibility.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

      Comparing him to other players that dont belong in the HOF is doing what exactly?

      If Biggio had 2800 hits is he a HOF'er?

      Robinson Cano is my definition of a HOF'er. Dominant player. Great defender. The upper crust of the games players. You dont need to think about it, you know he is a HOF'er.

      Too many players get in after its looked at from every angle with the hope you can figure out how he can get in.


      Example - I would take Jeff Kent over Biggio everyday of the week. Kent is not liked by writers - Biggio was. One is the HOF and one isnt. Honestly its not even close in my opinion. No fancy titles like "he was a Killer B" (absurd), just a guy who mashed - drove in 100 runs, was an MVP.
      --I compared Biggio to his fellow HOF 2Bs--how many are you tossing out with "other players that don't belong?" Unless that's directed at the 90s 2B thing, in which case, nobody's arguing for Mariano Duncan the HOFer, lol, I was just comparing him against the 90s 2Bs as per that "Was he ever the best player in his league" question on the criteria you posed--and, again, I think he meets that for Best NL 2B of the 90s.

      --Which brings me to Craig Biggio vs. Jeff Kent:
      Craig Biggio Batting Stats for Years 1988 to 2007

      HOU 2850 12504 10876 1844 3060 668 55 291 1175 414 124 1160 1753 .281
      Jeff Kent Batting Stats for Years 1992 to 2008

      TOR,NYM,CLE,SFG,HOU,LAD 2298 9537 8498 1320 2461 560 47 377 1518 94 60 801 1522 .290

      Kent's batting average is 9 points higher...Biggio has 600 more hits...Kent has about 90 more HRs...Biggio has about 300 more stolen bases...

      7 ASGs, 4 GGs, 4 SSs for Biggio vs. 5 ASGs, 4 SSs, and an MVP in 2000 for Kent...

      In the playoffs, with a pennant win each: Kent had a .276 average, 47 hits, 9 HRs, and 23 RBIs vs. .234, 39 hits, 2 HRs, and 11 RBIs for Biggio...

      2B being a traditionally-defensive position: Kent had 194 errors at 2B (236 total) vs. 156 errors at 2B for Biggio (204 total)...

      And in our beloved WAR, Kent is 10 points below Biggio, 55.4 vs. 65.5.

      What case beyond the MVP is there for Kent as a HOFer and not Biggio when the latter has the edge in defensive stats and Gold Gloves at a defensive position, is not just ahead in WAR but significantly so, and even on offense, where Kent would seem to have the advantage, it's Biggio with more hits AND more Silver Sluggers as the best hitter at his position?
      "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post

        What case beyond the MVP is there for Kent as a HOFer and not Biggio when the latter has the edge in defensive stats and Gold Gloves at a defensive position, is not just ahead in WAR but significantly so, and even on offense, where Kent would seem to have the advantage, it's Biggio with more hits AND more Silver Sluggers as the best hitter at his position?
        Kent also has the record for home runs hit by a second baseman with 377.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
          The All-Star 2B of the 90s:

          1990: Steve Sax, Julio Franco, Ryne Sandberg, Roberto Alomar
          1991: Roberto Alomar, Julio Franco, Ryne Sandberg, Juan Samuel
          1992: Roberto Alomar, Chuck Knoblauch, Ryne Sandberg, Craig Biggio
          1993: Roberto Alomar, Carlos Baerga, Ryne Sandberg, Robby Thompson
          1994: Roberto Alomar, Chuck Knoblauch, Mariano Duncan, Craig Biggio, Carlos Garcia
          1995: Carlos Baerga, Roberto Alomar, Craig Biggio, Mickey Morandini
          1996: Roberto Alomar, Chuck Knoblauch, Craig Biggio, Eric Young
          1997: Roberto Alomar, Joey Cora, Chuck Knoblauch, Craig Biggio, Tony Womack
          1998: Roberto Alomar, Damion Easley, Ray Durham, Craig Biggio, Brett Boone, Fernando Vina
          1999: Roberto Alomar, Jose Offerman, Jay Bell, Jeff Kent
          In 1999, Edgardo Alfonso was better than most/all of the 2nd basemen mentioned here.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post

            --I compared Biggio to his fellow HOF 2Bs--how many are you tossing out with "other players that don't belong?" Unless that's directed at the 90s 2B thing, in which case, nobody's arguing for Mariano Duncan the HOFer, lol, I was just comparing him against the 90s 2Bs as per that "Was he ever the best player in his league" question on the criteria you posed--and, again, I think he meets that for Best NL 2B of the 90s.

            --Which brings me to Craig Biggio vs. Jeff Kent:
            Craig Biggio Batting Stats for Years 1988 to 2007

            HOU 2850 12504 10876 1844 3060 668 55 291 1175 414 124 1160 1753 .281
            Jeff Kent Batting Stats for Years 1992 to 2008

            TOR,NYM,CLE,SFG,HOU,LAD 2298 9537 8498 1320 2461 560 47 377 1518 94 60 801 1522 .290

            Kent's batting average is 9 points higher...Biggio has 600 more hits...Kent has about 90 more HRs...Biggio has about 300 more stolen bases...

            7 ASGs, 4 GGs, 4 SSs for Biggio vs. 5 ASGs, 4 SSs, and an MVP in 2000 for Kent...

            In the playoffs, with a pennant win each: Kent had a .276 average, 47 hits, 9 HRs, and 23 RBIs vs. .234, 39 hits, 2 HRs, and 11 RBIs for Biggio...

            2B being a traditionally-defensive position: Kent had 194 errors at 2B (236 total) vs. 156 errors at 2B for Biggio (204 total)...

            And in our beloved WAR, Kent is 10 points below Biggio, 55.4 vs. 65.5.

            What case beyond the MVP is there for Kent as a HOFer and not Biggio when the latter has the edge in defensive stats and Gold Gloves at a defensive position, is not just ahead in WAR but significantly so, and even on offense, where Kent would seem to have the advantage, it's Biggio with more hits AND more Silver Sluggers as the best hitter at his position?
            I guess what we can do what we like with the stats

            Kent has a 60 point advantage in OPS. Has him in OPS plus.

            Biggio has a -2.9 DWAR for his career. Kent -0.9 - Kents defensive liabilities were vastly overrated -- like Biggios ability to play the position was vastly overrated.

            Kent is the all time leader in HR's for a 2nd basemen. Cano will eventually break it. How many players of the 8 positions have the highest amount of HR's and are not in the HOF? The answer is 2 I believe - Kent/Bonds

            ASG's ...I dont measure ASG's -- fans vote for their favorites and Kent was never that. Which is why he isnt in the HOF to begin with.
            GG's are also b.s.. Rafael Palmeiro has a GG for 1999 when he played exactly 28 games at first base. You get a reputation....right or wrong and you win. Depends on how gloves that guy can sell.

            To be fair we can forget Kent's MVP because the moron writers vote for that too.




            Just look at their 162 game averages on Baseball Reference. I mean it doesnt get any simpler than that. One player was good and the other one was better.

            Biggio .281/.363/.433/.796 7 HR's / 67 RBI's / 105 Runs / 24 steals
            Kent .290/.356/.500/.855 27 HR's / 107 RBI's / 93 Runs / 7 steals

            Take the names away and pick one to play for the Mets.........who ya takin?

            Want to add another layer on? Look at the post season numbers. Biggio flat out sucked. Flat out plain old sucked.
            Kent was basically Jeff Kent in the post season.

            Hands down no doubt in my mind who the better player was, and its not even close. Just goes to show you (and my original point) the HOF has become a joke.

            I will give Biggo one thing -- he was durable. He played a lot more games which leads to his higher beloved WAR.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

              Kent is the all time leader in HR's for a 2nd basemen. Cano will eventually break it. How many players of the 8 positions have the highest amount of HR's and are not in the HOF? The answer is 2 I believe - Kent/Bonds
              Possibly, but not likely. He is 35 years old and 4 seasons away at his current pace. Do you really think he will not decline at all and still be playing full time at age 38-40? Not if he's not roiding!

              Comment


              • Dropping in on Kent vs Biggio:

                Biggio was a hardcore compiler whereas Kent was a late bloomer who didn't shine until his late 20s. Therefore, you can't simply compare their career totals, such as hits. The difference comes from the nearly-600 more games that Biggio played.

                Furthermore --- Kent is tricky because so much of his HOF candidacy depends on how you judge his defense, which is difficult to gauge for him.

                On one hand, Baseball-Reference has him at 55.4 WAR in 2298 games; and they have Biggio at 65.5 WAR in 2850 games. Advantage Biggio.

                But Baseball Prospectus has Kent at 54.5 WAR in 2298 games; and they have Biggio at 48.7 WAR in 2850 games. The difference is that Baseball Prospectus ranks Kent as a +7.9 defender while they rank Biggio as a -115.4 defender.

                B-Ref uses Total Zone. Baseball Prospectus uses FRAA.

                There's no question that Kent's offense was historically good. It all comes to what defensive metric you want to look at.
                Last edited by redban; 03-27-2019, 01:00 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                  Possibly, but not likely. He is 35 years old and 4 seasons away at his current pace. Do you really think he will not decline at all and still be playing full time at age 38-40? Not if he's not roiding!
                  377 vs 311 is 66 homers. I am betting on Cano

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                    377 vs 311 is 66 homers. I am betting on Cano
                    I'm not. He projects to about 355 for his career. Bill James' favorite toy gives him a 50% chance. That diminishes even further when factoring 50% of his games being played at Citi Field.
                    Last edited by jjpm74; 03-27-2019, 01:49 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                      I'm not. He projects to about 355 for his career. Bill James' favorite toy gives him a 50% chance. That diminishes even further when factoring 50% of his games being played at Citi Field.
                      ok................

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                        ok................
                        Cano has averaged 16 home runs a season throughout his career and had one outlier year where he belted 39 which was 3 years ago. What leads you to believe he will magically hit a ton of home runs now that he is on the back end of age 35 and moving to a field that is not conducive to hitting home runs?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                          Kent has a 60 point advantage in OPS. Has him in OPS plus.

                          Fair.

                          Biggio has a -2.9 DWAR for his career. Kent -0.9 - Kents defensive liabilities were vastly overrated -- like Biggios ability to play the position was vastly overrated.

                          Also fair--I never thought Biggio was Robbie Alomar behind the bag or Kent a turnstile, both are exaggerated a bit in that respect.

                          Kent is the all time leader in HR's for a 2nd basemen. Cano will eventually break it. How many players of the 8 positions have the highest amount of HR's and are not in the HOF? The answer is 2 I believe - Kent/Bonds.

                          Also fair--I will say I never thought of Jeff Kent as a HUGE offensive threat, a good hitter but not a "feared" one in my estimation (Cano's much closer to rightfully being somewhat "feared," at least in a few of his seasons with the Yankees) but that is true that the other positional HR leaders are in.

                          ASG's ...I dont measure ASG's -- fans vote for their favorites and Kent was never that. Which is why he isnt in the HOF to begin with.

                          ASGs ARE popularity contests, and to me, popularity counts in evaluating a supposed Hall of Fame of baseball players the same way it does when evaluating a supposed Canon of great writers--

                          It can sometimes help you, it can rarely hurt you.

                          Mass opinion and reception matters somewhat (otherwise, why are you writing for/playing for an audience?) but baseball and literary history's full of people who've been mistakenly propped up or unfairly overlooked.

                          The only way it really "hurts" is an extreme lack thereof...part of the whole HOF debate is "Was this person ever considered to be one of the best players at the time?" component--and it's fans along with baseball writers doing the considering there. You'd have a pretty hard time making that assertion with few to any ASGs.

                          Excluding the guys who played before its inception, Bert Blyleven has the fewest ASGs for a HOFer (2) among pitchers, and Robin Yount the lowest for position players (3)--and both of them have the "I Played in Minnesota/Milwaukee Excuse."

                          If you have 2 or 3 and play in a decent-sized market like Biggio in Houston or the Bay Area/LA like Kent, chances are you're not a player with enough numbers or oomph to get in.


                          GG's are also b.s.. Rafael Palmeiro has a GG for 1999 when he played exactly 28 games at first base. You get a reputation....right or wrong and you win. Depends on how gloves that guy can sell.

                          I think slightly more of GGs/SSs slightly more than ASGs, but there's definitely exceptions like that.

                          To be fair we can forget Kent's MVP because the moron writers vote for that too.

                          Just look at their 162 game averages on Baseball Reference. I mean it doesnt get any simpler than that. One player was good and the other one was better.

                          Biggio .281/.363/.433/.796 7 HR's / 67 RBI's / 105 Runs / 24 steals
                          Kent .290/.356/.500/.855 27 HR's / 107 RBI's / 93 Runs / 7 steals

                          Take the names away and pick one to play for the Mets.........who ya takin?

                          Want to add another layer on? Look at the post season numbers. Biggio flat out sucked. Flat out plain old sucked.
                          Kent was basically Jeff Kent in the post season.

                          If Kent-Being-Kent is a .276 average and no huge game-winning hits (that come to mind, anyway) he's not getting in...that said, in fairness, if we evaluated Biggio on .234 and even less, he wouldn't be in either.

                          Hands down no doubt in my mind who the better player was, and its not even close. Just goes to show you (and my original point) the HOF has become a joke.

                          Well, I'll agree to disagree then. If Kent gets in I think both would be in the bottom third of HOF 2Bs easily, but I'd take Biggio overall every time.

                          I will give Biggo one thing -- he was durable. He played a lot more games which leads to his higher beloved WAR.
                          And with that, we've carried this into Opening Day and thus the likely end of this thread, lol...
                          "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                            Cano has averaged 16 home runs a season throughout his career and had one outlier year where he belted 39 which was 3 years ago. What leads you to believe he will magically hit a ton of home runs now that he is on the back end of age 35 and moving to a field that is not conducive to hitting home runs?
                            One outlier year?

                            He has 6 years of 25+. I fully understand his age and the possible decline.

                            It see him averaging 14 homers a year. I would be more surprised than not if it didnt. Therefore he doesnt need to hit a "TON" of homers magically to break the record. You make it sound like he just came out of a park that was a homerdome in Seattle.

                            You may be correct and Bill James may be 50% correct, but I see it happening.

                            We can debate this until the cows come home - you think he doesnt - I think he does. We will find out.

                            Comment


                            • Now he needs 65

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X