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  • Ok, I give Brodie less than a 50% chance of being the GM by the winter meetings this year. Hopefully, that will be the new owners 1st move. What a terrible job he has done.

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    • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
      Luis Guillorme pitched a shutout inning!

      Put him in the rotation!
      They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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      • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

        Rosario was highly rated because of physical tools. With proper coaching, he's made better use of them. The Fangraphs article gives a few reasons why they expect further improvement. I'd blame Rosario personally, but it seems a lot of players come up from the Minors here, not fully formed. You could say the same about players everywhere.

        The Mets also have a somewhat unique legacy of players they've given up on succeeding elsewhere (Travis d'Arnaud seems to be the latest). It's been suggested that coaching is part of infrastructure here that's been given short shrift. Perhaps an actual analytics team could have helped Rosario with his positioning a year earlier, but it only consisted of a couple people, at the time, I think.

        On the subject of Davis, I recall he was very good his first year and change, then had the ankle injury and caught Valley Fever. The rest of his career was a wash out, but he did put up a .903 OPS the last 98 games of 2012. He hit most of his 32 home runs for the season over that time.

        https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...tting_gamelogs

        Why weren't his mechanics an issue during the prolonged periods when he did well? I can't recall them changing much from his successful start.
        Good points. Trades aren’t always the answer. It was a million years ago but I’m still traumatized by the Seaver trade.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post

          It looks like Lugo in the mix for the closer role but why not let him start the rest of the season. The problem would be that it will probably take him a few weeks to get stretched out and by then he has around 5 starts left. Starting pitching is officially no longer a team strength. So much for 4 aces.
          I think they can go with a 4 man rotation and when needed, start Diaz and Familia. Give Diaz innings 1 and 2, Familia innings 3 and 4, a bullpen combo for 5, 6 and 7 then go to whoever the hot hand is for the 8th and Lugo for the 9th.

          That might actually get Diaz and Familia going and still gives them the same workload they should be used to.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

            Rosario was highly rated because of physical tools. With proper coaching, he's made better use of them. The Fangraphs article gives a few reasons why they expect further improvement. I'd blame Rosario personally, but it seems a lot of players come up from the Minors here, not fully formed. You could say the same about players everywhere.

            The Mets also have a somewhat unique legacy of players they've given up on succeeding elsewhere (Travis d'Arnaud seems to be the latest). It's been suggested that coaching is part of infrastructure here that's been given short shrift. Perhaps an actual analytics team could have helped Rosario with his positioning a year earlier, but it only consisted of a couple people, at the time, I think.
            What are the tools Rosario is supposed to have? I know he is still young, but he is fast, but a below average base runner. He has good field range, but a below average arm for a short stop and does not know how to properly field ground balls. He can hit for power, but his speed makes him more valuable as a top of the order guy. The problem there, beyond the base running issues is that he does not hit for contact and strikes out too much.

            Rosario does not seem to have a lot between the ears. He does not know when he should or should not try to steal a base and when to go for the extra base on a hit.

            Nimmo is another frustrating player. He is great at getting out of base, but reminds me of Willie Mays Hayes who got picked off when the first baseman told him his shoe is untied. Nimmo has made some bone headed head scratching mistakes on the base paths.

            Maybe coaching is part of it, but knowing the situation is very important. Someone can have all the talent in the world. Talent will take them only so far if they do not know how to use it.
            Last edited by jjpm74; 08-11-2020, 06:48 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

              Rosario was highly rated because of physical tools. With proper coaching, he's made better use of them. The Fangraphs article gives a few reasons why they expect further improvement. I'd blame Rosario personally, but it seems a lot of players come up from the Minors here, not fully formed. You could say the same about players everywhere.

              The Mets also have a somewhat unique legacy of players they've given up on succeeding elsewhere (Travis d'Arnaud seems to be the latest). It's been suggested that coaching is part of infrastructure here that's been given short shrift. Perhaps an actual analytics team could have helped Rosario with his positioning a year earlier, but it only consisted of a couple people, at the time, I think.

              On the subject of Davis, I recall he was very good his first year and change, then had the ankle injury and caught Valley Fever. The rest of his career was a wash out, but he did put up a .903 OPS the last 98 games of 2012. He hit most of his 32 home runs for the season over that time.

              https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...tting_gamelogs

              Why weren't his mechanics an issue during the prolonged periods when he did well? I can't recall them changing much from his successful start.
              If he was drafted based upon on physical tools some people need to be fired. Jose Feliciano can see the absolute lack of physical tools. I have said this since I saw him.

              I am not going to blame Rosario's lack of physical tools on coaching. I am also not going to blame on Rosario. It is what it is.

              I ask again...what part of the game does Rosario excel at?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                What are the tools Rosario is supposed to have? I know he is still young, but he is fast, but a below average base runner. He has good field range, but a below average arm for a short stop and does not know how to properly field ground balls. He can hit for power, but his speed makes him more valuable as a top of the order guy. The problem there, beyond the base running issues is that he does not hit for contact and strikes out too much.

                Rosario does not seem to have a lot between the ears. He does not know when he should or should not try to steal a base and when to go for the extra base on a hit.

                Nimmo is another frustrating player. He is great at getting out of base, but reminds me of Willie Mays Hayes who got picked off when the first baseman told him his shoe is untied. Nimmo has made some bone headed head scratching mistakes on the base paths.

                Maybe coaching is part of it, but knowing the situation is very important. Someone can have all the talent in the world. Talent will take them only so far if they do not know how to use it.
                I keep asking what part of the game Rosario excels at. I still dont have an answer....nobody's fault. The answer is there is no answer because there is no aspect of the game that any fan can say "he is excellent at this". As an example When Reyes came up in 2003 (age 20) - he was raw as hell, but you saw the speed, the arm, and explosive movements in his game. Reyes had physical gifts. Rosario to no fault of his own doesnt have those gifts to make him an elite player....or quite possible even good one.

                It seems like I am always picking on Rosario...maybe I am, but the fact that he is still considered a cornerstone of the their future its absolutely mind boggling to me. The way he is defended because of age, and what a scout said 5 years ago is a little strange to me. He is now 24 with 371 games under his belt and there is still no tangible skill that we can pick out and say he owns it.

                Ok you can believe all the hype when you dont see the player day to day while in the minors but when you get to see the player it is time to take a real look at the guy and realize that the hype was just that...hype.

                For 3 years I was hoping I was wrong, and I still do. I hope I have come on here and eat crow at some point in regards to Rosario. I much rather him be great and me be historically incorrect, than the other way around. I am waiting........and waiting.

                Still young at 24? Yes, but he should be coming into his prime with the skill set developed over 371 games.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                  I keep asking what part of the game Rosario excels at. I still dont have an answer....nobody's fault. The answer is there is no answer because there is no aspect of the game that any fan can say "he is excellent at this". As an example When Reyes came up in 2003 (age 20) - he was raw as hell, but you saw the speed, the arm, and explosive movements in his game. Reyes had physical gifts. Rosario to no fault of his own doesnt have those gifts to make him an elite player....or quite possible even good one.

                  It seems like I am always picking on Rosario...maybe I am, but the fact that he is still considered a cornerstone of the their future its absolutely mind boggling to me. The way he is defended because of age, and what a scout said 5 years ago is a little strange to me. He is now 24 with 371 games under his belt and there is still no tangible skill that we can pick out and say he owns it.

                  Ok you can believe all the hype when you dont see the player day to day while in the minors but when you get to see the player it is time to take a real look at the guy and realize that the hype was just that...hype.

                  For 3 years I was hoping I was wrong, and I still do. I hope I have come on here and eat crow at some point in regards to Rosario. I much rather him be great and me be historically incorrect, than the other way around. I am waiting........and waiting.

                  Still young at 24? Yes, but he should be coming into his prime with the skill set developed over 371 games.
                  The thing is, he was supposed to be the heir apparent to Jose Reyes. On paper, their offensive basics are similar:

                  Reyes through age 23 (at age 24, Reyes played a 162 game season and Rosario has only played 14 games): 95 OPS+, .285/.321/.427/.749
                  Roasrio's same stats to date: 91 OPS+. .267/.301/.402/.703

                  Reyes shows more productivity. Then when you get inside the numbers, Reyes blows Rosario out of the water. SB/CS Reyes 156/37 SB.SB/CS Rosario 50/24. Rosario is a hideous base stealer. Next Total Bases Reyes 785, Rosario 560. Reyes was better at taking the extra base.

                  Now defense. I am keeping this one pretty basic and only bothering with dWAR and Rfield: Reyes 3.1, Rosario -1.9. That is a HUGE difference. Rfield Reyes 11, Rosario -34. That is a meteoric difference.

                  Reyes never became a HOF level player, but he was undeniably a talented All Star level player during his first stint with the Mets. So far, Rosario has not measured up and my patience is wearing thin with him now that the younger and more talented Gimenez is here and nipping at his feet.

                  Gimenez should be at SS every day for the remainder of this season. This is a weird lost year anyway. Let's see what he is. Move Rosario to 2B and Cano to DH if Rosario is staying. Rosario does not seem to have the tools necessary to be a good SS or to be a good top of the order guy. Maybe he needs to develop his power numbers instead, since he has shown that he can hit for power and dropped in the order to the 7 hole and play 2B.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                    I keep asking what part of the game Rosario excels at. I still dont have an answer....nobody's fault. The answer is there is no answer because there is no aspect of the game that any fan can say "he is excellent at this". As an example When Reyes came up in 2003 (age 20) - he was raw as hell, but you saw the speed, the arm, and explosive movements in his game. Reyes had physical gifts. Rosario to no fault of his own doesnt have those gifts to make him an elite player....or quite possible even good one.

                    It seems like I am always picking on Rosario...maybe I am, but the fact that he is still considered a cornerstone of the their future its absolutely mind boggling to me. The way he is defended because of age, and what a scout said 5 years ago is a little strange to me. He is now 24 with 371 games under his belt and there is still no tangible skill that we can pick out and say he owns it.

                    Ok you can believe all the hype when you dont see the player day to day while in the minors but when you get to see the player it is time to take a real look at the guy and realize that the hype was just that...hype.

                    For 3 years I was hoping I was wrong, and I still do. I hope I have come on here and eat crow at some point in regards to Rosario. I much rather him be great and me be historically incorrect, than the other way around. I am waiting........and waiting.

                    Still young at 24? Yes, but he should be coming into his prime with the skill set developed over 371 games.
                    "People generally see what they look for and hear what they listen for"

                    You and I are both doing that. Every MLB player is excellent because they are making their living playing a sport.

                    I see that Rosario is the second youngest position player on the team. He has played in more games in 2018 and 2019 than any other player on this team. He was 5th in the NL in 2019 in hits. He was 10th in the NL in stolen bases in 2019. Tied for 4th in triples.
                    Coming to work every day is excellent. Conforto, Nimmo, Smith and McNeil haven't done that. It's not their fault they've been injured. But they have been.

                    I'm obviously cherry-picking those stats, like we all do.

                    Not that Mets management has ever hinted at trading him, but why would any team, particularly with Van Wagenen in charge, make a trade of a player like him when they aren't any good at making trades?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                      The thing is, he was supposed to be the heir apparent to Jose Reyes. On paper, their offensive basics are similar:

                      Reyes through age 23 (at age 24, Reyes played a 162 game season and Rosario has only played 14 games): 95 OPS+, .285/.321/.427/.749
                      Roasrio's same stats to date: 91 OPS+. .267/.301/.402/.703

                      Reyes shows more productivity. Then when you get inside the numbers, Reyes blows Rosario out of the water. SB/CS Reyes 156/37 SB.SB/CS Rosario 50/24. Rosario is a hideous base stealer. Next Total Bases Reyes 785, Rosario 560. Reyes was better at taking the extra base.

                      Now defense. I am keeping this one pretty basic and only bothering with dWAR and Rfield: Reyes 3.1, Rosario -1.9. That is a HUGE difference. Rfield Reyes 11, Rosario -34. That is a meteoric difference.

                      Reyes never became a HOF level player, but he was undeniably a talented All Star level player during his first stint with the Mets. So far, Rosario has not measured up and my patience is wearing thin with him now that the younger and more talented Gimenez is here and nipping at his feet.

                      Gimenez should be at SS every day for the remainder of this season. This is a weird lost year anyway. Let's see what he is. Move Rosario to 2B and Cano to DH if Rosario is staying. Rosario does not seem to have the tools necessary to be a good SS or to be a good top of the order guy. Maybe he needs to develop his power numbers instead, since he has shown that he can hit for power and dropped in the order to the 7 hole and play 2B.
                      Totally agree with you.

                      This season is borderline absurd (although it counts and I am glad they are playing) so let Gimenez play short and see what there is there.

                      Actually comparing Reyes and Rosario isnt fair - they are very different levels of player. Rosario in my opinion is between Jose Reyes and Rafael Santana, but closer in skill set to Santana than to Reyes.

                      My patience was wearing thing without Gimenez in the picture. I dont think Rosario totally sucks, but when I hear he is a cornerstone player and can not be traded I just dont get it.
                      Last edited by Paulypal; 08-11-2020, 12:53 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                        Totally agree with you.

                        This season is borderline absurd (although it counts and I am glad they are playing) so let Gimenez play short and see what their is there.

                        Actually comparing Reyes and Rosario isnt fair - they are very different levels of player. Rosario in my opinion is between Jose Reyes and Rafael Santana, but closer in skill set to Santana than to Reyes.

                        My patience was wearing thing without Gimenez in the picture. I dont think Rosario totally sucks, but when I hear he is a cornerstone player and can not be traded I just dont get it.
                        The thing is, if he is supposed to be a cornerstone of this team and the team's SS moving forward, the comparisons we should be making are to Reyes and not Santana.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                          The thing is, if he is supposed to be a cornerstone of this team and the team's SS moving forward, the comparisons we should be making are to Reyes and not Santana.
                          Right now the Mets have one cornerstone player. Jacob deGrom.

                          That doesnt mean I would trade Alonso, McNeil, Nimmo, or Conforto...nor do I want to, but when you say a player that you can count on to build around -- its only deGrom for me. Maybe I can put McNeil in there as we have seen some consistency in his game.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                            Right now the Mets have one cornerstone player. Jacob deGrom.

                            That doesnt mean I would trade Alonso, McNeil, Nimmo, or Conforto...nor do I want to, but when you say a player that you can count on to build around -- its only deGrom for me. Maybe I can put McNeil in there as we have seen some consistency in his game.
                            I think we have seen enough of Nimmo to know what he is. He is very good at getting on base and a mediocre fielder and base runner. I can see him plateauing around what Brett Gardner is and has been to the Yankees.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                              If he was drafted based upon on physical tools some people need to be fired. Jose Feliciano can see the absolute lack of physical tools. I have said this since I saw him.

                              I am not going to blame Rosario's lack of physical tools on coaching. I am also not going to blame on Rosario. It is what it is.

                              I ask again...what part of the game does Rosario excel at?
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                              What are the tools Rosario is supposed to have?
                              Well he has some of the best sprint speed in baseball:

                              https://www.mlb.com/news/amed-rosari...top-c254435090

                              And according to innumerable articles, he has natural gap power to go along with the speed, great fast twitch muscle reaction, which manifests in a quick swing, he also has "superior hands, footwork and a plus arm". Basically every scout and prospect reviewer was saying the same thing. Remember, Fred and Sandy didn't just decide to give him $1.7M to sign because they're generous, it was a competitive bidding process.

                              He's shown coachability. He's shown improvement. He had a good season last year. The "experts" feel he can improve on that.

                              There are some teams that can get players like Gio Urshela, Mike Tauchman and D.J. LeMahieu and turn them into stars. There are some teams that can have players like Daniel Murphy, Justin Turner, etc., and be oblivious to their potential. Perhaps Amed isn't capable of turning his vast natural ability (which all professional scouts agree on) into better results. My guess is, as soon as he's traded, a more capable organization will humiliate the Mets, yet again.


                              "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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                              • "Mets have left five runners in the last two."

                                I swear the Mets waste more base-runners than politicians waste tax money.

                                Mets 2020! The Times Are A-Changin' But the Mets NEVER Do!
                                "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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