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  • Minaya must change approach with farm system

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...2685840.column

    Minaya must change approach with farm system

    Ken Davidoff
    December 9, 2007

    It's clear, from what has transpired this offseason, that the Mets need a deeper, more talented farm system if they want to trade for the likes of Johan Santana, Dan Haren and Erik Bedard.

    You can revamp an organization pretty quickly nowadays by capitalizing on the very imperfect amateur draft. That's what the Yankees have done. It's precisely what the Mets have not done.

    But Omar Minaya sounds as if he wants to change his drafting methodology. "In the past, we have really been very good citizens," the Mets' general manager said this past week at the winter meetings in Nashville. "We've operated under the slotting system. But I think we have to continue to evaluate each individual case.

    "It's tough when you are operating [by the slots] and not everybody operates by the slotting system. Each individual draft, we'll have to look at it."

    Major League Baseball establishes "slots" for the early rounds of the draft, and it begs teams to adhere to those signing-bonus ceilings. The Yankees are among many clubs that treat those recommendations with stifled laughter, routinely paying above slot. That's how the Yankees have restocked their minor leagues, with director of scouting Damon Oppenheimer choosing the right players to reward. The Mets, to the contrary, have an excellent relationship with the commissioner's office, and they haven't paid over slot since drafting Mike Pelfrey in 2005. They haven't had a first-round pick the past two years, the result of signing Type A free agents Billy Wagner and Moises Alou, but they haven't utilized their considerable financial might to take some risks in the later rounds, either.

    When the subject of the Yankees' draft approach came up, Minaya nodded. "By doing that, they've been able to get Joba Chamberlain and [Ian] Kennedy and those kinds of guys," he said. "We would always like to be good citizens, but we have to see. If we're the only club, if we're one of only two or three teams, then we have to evaluate it."

    Minaya first expressed these sentiments in Baseball America.
    "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

    "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

  • #2
    What this ignores is that rather than just signing FAs he's already traded minor leaguers in recent season for the likes of Delgado and LoDuca.

    Comment


    • #3
      The minor leaguers he traded for Delgado and Lo Duca were nothing special.
      "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

      "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

      "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

      Comment


      • #4
        There's a problem of trying to have the cake and eat it. The Mets don't have the same payroll restrictions that make other teams rely more on the farm, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't put proper care and effort into getting the best players possible, either for trades or to develop in-house stars.

        As for the slot system, it could be settled by having a set price for each first round pick, irrespective of position. Let's say $50K, and quit the crying. I'm in two minds as to whether the union would go for this. Probably not, but it does mean more $ available for veterans.

        Personally, I would like to see the Mets build more through the farm than giving up potential stars for quick-fix FAs. They have to stop thinking they need to compete with the Yankees - they only play them six games a season. Let the Yankees blow huge amounts of money on failing FAs. Mets need to work smart.
        :cap:

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Silver Blaze View Post
          There's a problem of trying to have the cake and eat it. The Mets don't have the same payroll restrictions that make other teams rely more on the farm, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't put proper care and effort into getting the best players possible, either for trades or to develop in-house stars.

          As for the slot system, it could be settled by having a set price for each first round pick, irrespective of position. Let's say $50K, and quit the crying. I'm in two minds as to whether the union would go for this. Probably not, but it does mean more $ available for veterans.

          Personally, I would like to see the Mets build more through the farm than giving up potential stars for quick-fix FAs. They have to stop thinking they need to compete with the Yankees - they only play them six games a season. Let the Yankees blow huge amounts of money on failing FAs. Mets need to work smart.
          The Mets acquire guys through trades (and that costs prospects). They don't load up on big money FAs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Silver Blaze View Post
            Personally, I would like to see the Mets build more through the farm than giving up potential stars for quick-fix FAs. They have to stop thinking they need to compete with the Yankees - they only play them six games a season. Let the Yankees blow huge amounts of money on failing FAs. Mets need to work smart.
            Yeah, That is how all teams should play it.

            For team own players for the first 4 or 5 season before they can become Free Againts and they don't get paid what they really are worth in that time.

            As a Brewers fan I can tell you that. We had the Rookie of year. He played like a 20 million dolar player and he was paid only 380K for it and Fielder played like an MVP for the bargin of 415K. So a strong Farm system plays a big part in it.

            The Yankees and all there money can not compeat with that. And the goal is to do it good enough where you have the players to replace the players you have ready before the players you have becomes to expensive to keep them all.

            To bad the Yankees can't figure that out. If they could get a handfull of those kind of players they wouldn't have to pay as much payroll and they could stop pushing the limits of salaries and then it could get to the point where us fans would have to be ask to pay more and more every year.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
              The minor leaguers he traded for Delgado and Lo Duca were nothing special.
              Isnt that a good thing? Those two guys helped the mets to Game 7 of the NLCS, and he got them for some minor leaguers that weren't anything special.
              Originally posted by Domenic
              The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Westlake View Post
                Isnt that a good thing? Those two guys helped the mets to Game 7 of the NLCS, and he got them for some minor leaguers that weren't anything special.
                Yes.

                What I'm saying is people complain that they don't have a deep farm system. They say they need a deep farm so they can trade for vets. Well they already did that to help get the team out of the bottom of the league. now it just takes a little time to rebuild it. This year they have 3 picks in the top 33 (or somewhere between 31-35). That plus a couple of foreign signees and suddenly they're building depth.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Westlake View Post
                  Isnt that a good thing? Those two guys helped the mets to Game 7 of the NLCS, and he got them for some minor leaguers that weren't anything special.
                  Yes. However, Delgado and Lo Duca were both salary dumps by a penny pinching team. They could have given the Marlins anything with a pulse for them.

                  The problem is the Mets top prospects are rushed and lose their value. That's why they don't have what it takes to make a trade (not a salary dump which I consider different) for a high quality player.
                  "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                  "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                  "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                    The problem is the Mets top prospects are rushed and lose their value.
                    I agree with the rushing of prospects, Milledge, Pelfrey and Gomez were all not ready, and I hope they keep F-Martinez in the minors as long as they can. Granted I was excited when I heard they were going to play, but there were other minor leaguers that didn't have any real value attached to them that could have been brought up to fill gaps (In fact playing in the majors would have only improved their value, unlike with the highly-touted prospects, where any slow start immediately decreases their value).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This article make any mention that the Mets farm system used to be plentiful about 2-3 years ago.

                      Then the Mets made moves for Victor Zambrano, Paul LoDuca, Ambroix Burgois, Carlos Delgado, Mike Cameron, Roberto Hernandez, Shawn Green, Ben Johnson, Jason Vargas, Luis Castillo.....all those moves cost the Mets their farm system.

                      It seemed like a fair trade off at the time. But anytime a team sacrafices it's future for "win now" your going to have this type of situation.
                      "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TonyStarks View Post
                        This article make any mention that the Mets farm system used to be plentiful about 2-3 years ago.

                        Then the Mets made moves for Victor Zambrano, Paul LoDuca, Ambroix Burgois, Carlos Delgado, Mike Cameron, Roberto Hernandez, Shawn Green, Ben Johnson, Jason Vargas, Luis Castillo.....all those moves cost the Mets their farm system.

                        It seemed like a fair trade off at the time. But anytime a team sacrafices it's future for "win now" your going to have this type of situation.
                        Here are the players the Mets gave up for the ones you mentioned:
                        Scott Kazmir, Jose Diaz
                        Dante Brinkley, Gaby Hernandez
                        Brian Bannister
                        Mike Jacobs, Yusmeiro Petit, Grant Psomas
                        Evan MacLane
                        Heath Bell, Royce Ring
                        Henry Owens, Matt Lindstrom
                        Drew Butera, Dustin Martin

                        They signed Cameron and Hernandez as FA's. If you're referring to obtaining Hernandez the second time, they traded Xavier Nady for him. Oliver Perez was a throw-in.

                        Of those 15 players, only 4 have succeeded in the major leagues. Those 4 are Kazmir, Bannister, Bell, and Lindstom. Of them, only Kazmir has done it for more than 1 season. Bell was NEVER going to work out with the Mets. He hated his role and Rick Peterson. Bannister was never the pitcher he was last year in his time with the Mets. It's unlikely he'll even repeat those numbers in the future. Lindstrom only had a fastball with the Mets.

                        As for the others, Butera can't hit. Martin is a 4th OF at best. Owens has been on the DL more times than Kerry Wood and has some of the worst mechanics ever. Jacobs is a poor 1B and actually worse than an 07 Delgado both offensively and defensively. Petit is not good. Psomas is so awful defensively you wouldn't believe how bad he is. Don't know much about Diaz, Brinkley, or Hernandez.

                        Also, the Mets got Adam Bostick along with Jason Vargas. Check Bostick's stats in the AFL this year.
                        "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                        "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                        "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm not sure Omar's been around long enough to judge him on the farm system. We're doing OK. The Art Howe days weren't that long ago you know.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And in addition to what NYMets523 said, the farm system developed under three different handlers...Steve Phillips, Jim Duquette, and Omar Minaya. You can't totally and completely say "the current front office is to blame for our farm system," as Phillips and Duquette, who are long gone, also made some of these blunders. Now, aside from Kazmir, Fluky Bannister, and Heath "I needed a change of scenery" Bell, not too many of those names seem to jump out. I'll elaborate...

                            -Joselo Diaz debuted in the Majors with Texas. He got shelled and his career is in shambles. He's now a non-roster invitee to ST for the Mets.

                            -Dante Brinkley was a fluke. Though he hit well at the lower levels in the Minors, he's since collapsed since going to the Marlins organization.

                            -Gaby Hernandez may turn into a solid reliever. Though he's often ballyhooed as a starter due to his terrific fastball, his almost complete inability to throw a breaking pitch plus just having a so-so changeup puts him pretty far away from the Majors developmentally.

                            -Mike Jacobs hasn't really lived up to the potential we thought he had, though has been solid. He may become a pretty good player (especially as a power hitter) in future years, but I see him as a DH type due to his relatively poor fielding.

                            -Yusmeiro Petit was a bust. He was ballyhooed as an ace, which he was most certainly not, and many analysts looked at him and saw him as a wreck waiting to happen (one guy writing for Baseball America actually wrote "he's having success, but not sure why."). The D-Backs may convert him into some kind of servicable fifth starter/swingman.

                            -Grant Psomas was another bust. He hit well, but his nickname was "Iron Glove." He was a natural third baseman and moved from second to third with regularity. When the Marlins finally converted him into a first baseman, he started fielding well. His only problem now was that he stopped hitting well.

                            -Evan MacLane was actually kinda like a left-handed version of Mike Devaney. But unlike Devaney, he never really had good luck. This year with Arizona's AAA affiliate, he posted an astronomical 7.20 ERA and couldn't get right-handers out to save his life. I doubt he'll make the Majors.

                            -Royce Ring was a guy we didn't need. In fact, he was an attitude we didn't need. He didn't like authority and that meant pretty much any manager in the Mets Minor League chain. I know relief pitchers can be cocky, but this guy was beyond cocky. The Padres found that out the hard way when he refused to speak with Bud Black. He's on the Braves now, but so long as Bobby Cox is managing that team, I can't see him doing too well there. He's not driftwood, but he's not exactly terrific either.

                            -Henry Owens had horrendous mechanics. Unlike Matt Lindstrom, giving this guy up was NOT a mistake. He broke down four times with the Marlins as a result of his complex arm action, horrid amount of stress he put on his shoulder, and herky-jerky delivery. Getting Bostick in return for him straight up would've been a true win.

                            -Drew Butera was a good fielder. Unfortunately, he couldn't hit to save his life, either. He couldn't hit his own weight (and he doesn't weigh much) at AA ball. I'd be kinda surprised if he makes the Majors as even a backup.

                            -Dustin Martin might be a good fourth outfielder one day. His power likely won't translate to a Major League level, and his batting eye won't be so good, though he is a good defender and probably will post a decent batting average.
                            "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
                            -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

                            Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dalkowski110 View Post
                              -Henry Owens had horrendous mechanics. Unlike Matt Lindstrom, giving this guy up was NOT a mistake. He broke down four times with the Marlins as a result of his complex arm action, horrid amount of stress he put on his shoulder, and herky-jerky delivery. Getting Bostick in return for him straight up would've been a true win.
                              O god, I managed to be at the game where he made his major league debut against the Marlins. I was with my dad and we both noticed his incredibly herky-jerky motion and we both said he is a shoulder problem waiting to happen.
                              He threw very hard and pitched well that outing I saw (I think he struck the first guy out with all fastballs), but that was the last I ever saw of him.
                              To be fair, he was a converted catcher but I don't suggest taking pitching lessons from who ever taught him his motion.


                              We as met fans seem to get a little paranoid when trading prospects after the horrendous Kazmir deal
                              Last edited by RubyLegs; 12-11-2007, 10:45 PM.

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