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  • #31
    Schneider isn't dead weight. He's good defensively which is what this team could use.
    "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

    "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

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    • #32
      Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
      Schneider isn't dead weight. He's good defensively which is what this team could use.
      He's not very good at throwing runners out, and (I can't find the link right now, but I read it a little while ago) Nationals pitchers had a higher ERA with Schneider than they did with Flores.
      ~MOE

      Moonlight Graham
      ...one game, no at-bats...


      RisingApple.com

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      • #33
        "Nationals pitchers had a higher ERA with Schneider than they did with Flores."

        That stat is VERY misleading for several reasons. First and foremost among them was that Flores caught fewer games. It could also be a fluke; look at celebrated game-caller Yorvit Torrealba and raw rookie Chris Iannetta with the '07 Rockies. The only guy who did significantly better with Torrealba was Josh Fogg.
        "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
        -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

        Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by moebarguy View Post
          He's not very good at throwing runners out, and (I can't find the link right now, but I read it a little while ago) Nationals pitchers had a higher ERA with Schneider than they did with Flores.
          Schneider does a good job throwing out runners and is the best around at calling a game and handling a staff.

          Delgado is NOT untalented. Calling Carlos Delgado untalented brings into question your knowledge of the game. Carlos' skills may have diminished to some extent, but untalented? Schoenweis is and should only be used as a lefty specialist. Used properly he is very effective. Used improperly it's like having a platoon player, then complaining when he doesn't hit well against the opposite pitcher.

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          • #35
            Schneider had the 4th best CS% and 3rd fewest SB against of all NL catchers starting more than 100 games.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by metfan13 View Post
              Schneider does a good job throwing out runners and is the best around at calling a game and handling a staff.
              [EDIT] I guess he is a top 5 at CS%, but that's still not a good reason to boot offense and trade a guy like Milledge.

              And "best around at calling a game and handling a staff" is totally subjective. That was the same crap reason that Omar used when he "signed" Torrealba.
              Last edited by moebarguy; 03-01-2008, 05:57 PM.
              ~MOE

              Moonlight Graham
              ...one game, no at-bats...


              RisingApple.com

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Dalkowski110 View Post
                "Nationals pitchers had a higher ERA with Schneider than they did with Flores."

                That stat is VERY misleading for several reasons. First and foremost among them was that Flores caught fewer games.
                That can work both ways...technically, catching more innings helps balance out the bad games from the good. Since Flores had less innings to deal with, if there were a lot of bad outings, it would be even more reflected in his ERA split.
                ~MOE

                Moonlight Graham
                ...one game, no at-bats...


                RisingApple.com

                Comment


                • #38
                  It's not subjective. Schneider is an improvement from Lo Duca. Lo Duca not only lost all defensive skills down the stretch but his offensive skills dropped significantly as well. Plus he was a distration off the field. Even as a fan his antics got tiresome. I could only imagine how it was for the guys who actually had to deal with him.
                  "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                  "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                  "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    "That can work both ways"

                    The key word is "can." Not "will."

                    "technically, catching more innings helps balance out the bad games from the good."

                    Enough. I'm going pitcher-by-pitcher. Also throwing in BABIP (the lower the better) since the Nats have a ton of contact pitchers.

                    Matt Chico: 24 games caught by Schneider, 7 by Flores. Did better with Flores, but the sample size is too small. Lower BABIP with Flores (.289 vs. .253).

                    Jason Bergmann: 17 games with Schneider, 4 with Flores. Did better with Flores, but again, sample size is too small. BABIP is lower under Flores (.262 to .186).

                    Mike Bacsik: 22 caught by Schneider, 8 by Flores. Again, same thing, although this is really the only pitcher so far where the difference is actually extreme. Flores also wins BABIP, .204 to .292.

                    Shawn Hill: 10 games caught by Schneider, 6 by Flores. Did better with Schneider. Schneider also wins BABIP, .236 to .303.

                    Tim Redding: 10 by Schneider, 7 by Flores. Did better with Flores. But his BABIP is actually slightly lower with Schneider (.283 vs. .286).

                    Jason Simontacchi: 9 with Schneider, 4 with Flores. Did better with Schneider, but just barely. BABIP is pretty close, but Flores wins that (.339 vs. .348)

                    Joel Hanrahan: 7 with Schneider, 5 with Flores. A big difference here, but only the second since Bacsik. Flores wins BABIP (.300 vs. .341)

                    John Patterson: 5 caught by Schneider, 2 by Flores. Although the sample size is too small, Schneider actually makes a huge difference here and picks up a win. He also wins BABIP, .272 to .462.

                    Jerome Williams: 4 caught by Schneider, 2 by Flores. Another stark contrast, this time going to Flores. BABIP also goes to Flores (.175 vs. .350)

                    John Lannan: 4 games caught by Schneider, 2 by Flores. Another stark contrast, but this time, it goes to Schneider. He also wins BABIP, .259 to .316.

                    Relievers (Note I'm only including 25+ IP)...

                    Winston Abreu: 25 Schneider, 4 Flores. He does a lot better under Flores, but then again, he only faces 13 batters with Flores. Flores wins BABIP, .182 to .354.

                    Billy Traber: 22 Schneider, 6 Flores. He does a little better with Flores, but not that much. BABIP also goes to Flores (.352 with Schneider, .321 with Flores).

                    Levale Speigner: 14 Schneider, 5 Flores. He does markedly better with Flores. Flores also wins BABIP, .288 to .398.

                    Chris Schroder: 25 Schneider, 13 Flores (so far the most games with any single pitcher Flores has caught) Does markedly better with Schneider. Schnider also wins BABIP, .250 to .295.

                    Luis Ayala: Again, Flores catches a lot of games here. 29 for Schneider, 15 for Flores (so far the highest total). But he does better with Schneider, albeit marginally. In fact, Flores wins BABIP, .286 to .289 (though the difference is really nothing, as we can see here).

                    Micah Bowie: Flores only catches 4 games with Bowie and there are only 17 at-bats in which Flores catches him (Schneider has 26 games and 194 at-bats). He does slightly better with Flores, but to say it's any real sample size is unfair to Schneider. Flores wins BABIP, .235 to .263.

                    Ray King: 39 games with Schneider, 16 (most so far) with Flores. He does a little better with Flores. Flores also wins BABIP, .226 to .257.

                    Jesus Colome: 42 games caught by Schneider, 19 (most so far) by Flores. Colome does better with Schneider behind the plate. Schneider also wins BABIP, .270 to .316.

                    Saul Rivera: 60 games with Schneider, and 26 (again, most so far) with Flores. Rivera does better with Schneider, though only incrementally so. Schneider just barely wins BABIP, .305 to .309.

                    Jon Rauch: 61 games with Schneider, 27 (most so far...that phrase must be getting stale) by Flores. Just barely does better with Flores. Flores also just barely wins BABIP, .266 to .270.

                    Chad Cordero: 51 games by Schneider, 25 by Flores. Does better with Schneider, and actually a LOT better. Flores also wins BABIP by a lot (.284 to .342).


                    So, in total, 12 pitchers do better with Flores, 9 do better with Schneider. If you count BABIP, you really don't have much difference.

                    But what about catching the same guy ten times or more? I would call that a fair sample size. These are guys where BOTH Schneider and Flores caught more than 10 games, btw. Well, then Schneider wins 5 to 3. Two of those guys are really too close to call (Ayala and Rauch), but then you find yourself back down to 4 to 1.
                    "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
                    -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

                    Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

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                    • #40
                      Dal, nice work finding those stats. Regardless, I'm still not entirely convinced that he's not dead weight. It's almost like having a far inferior Rey Ordonez behind the dish.
                      ~MOE

                      Moonlight Graham
                      ...one game, no at-bats...


                      RisingApple.com

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        He's still an improvement over Lo Duca.
                        "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                        "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                        "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by moebarguy View Post
                          Dal, nice work finding those stats. Regardless, I'm still not entirely convinced that he's not dead weight. It's almost like having a far inferior Rey Ordonez behind the dish.
                          If you invest $140 million or so in a pitcher, have two still young pitchers as key parts of your rotation, it pays to have a very good catcher behind the plate. They can afford his bat at #8 if the first 7 are pulling their weight.

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                          • #43
                            "It's almost like having a far inferior Rey Ordonez behind the dish."

                            I'd call that an extreme exaggeration. Ordonez could barely hit his own weight, and that was before he started bulking up (aka 'roiding). Schneider has managed to hit about .250-.260 with consistency but had a real down year last year. Part of this should be attributed to bad luck. Much as pitchers have a BABIP, so do hitters, though I'm sure you're aware of this. I'm merely explaining how it works for the benefit of anyone else who is curious. Generally, with a pitcher, BABIP (Batting Average on Balls in Play) reflects batting average against of any fair ball that the batter makes contact with EXCEPT for homeruns. The average BABIP is about .280-.290 for a pitcher. Anything inordinately higher or lower reflects terrible luck on the part of the pitcher in the former case (for example, Roger Craig's years with the Mets) or really lucky in the latter case (for example, Randy Jones with the Padres...a more recent example would be the Mariners' Carlos Silva).

                            With hitters, BABIP is kinda turned around, but it's the same basic principle. This time, the HIGHER the BABIP, the luckier the guy is. Over the long term, BA and BABIP for a hitter should be within 20-25 points of each other. Look at any hitter with a long career, no matter how good or bad, and this pattern repeats itself (although out of total curiosity, I looked at Rey Ordonez in some of his worst seasons and he was so incredibly unlucky that his career BA/BABIP split is a full thirty points! It would actually be more if he didn't have that 2003 season with Tampa Bay where he got REALLY lucky.).

                            Now, let's look at Brian Schneider. He's actually been a somewhat unlucky hitter throughout his career, with a BA of .252 and a BABIP of .281. That's still within reason, though. However, it stems from two REALLY unlucky seasons: 2003 (.230 BA with a .269 BABIP...compare this to 2004 where he hits .257 with a .275 BABIP) and 2006 (.255 with a .294 BABIP). So what about '07? Well, Schneider is reasonably represented against right-handed pitching (.244 BA and a .260 BABIP), but is pretty unlucky against left-handed pitching (.212 BA, but a .242 BABIP).

                            Something else Schneider has that Rey Ordonez never did is the ability to get on base. Despite a miserable BA (which as we've seen can partially be chalked up to bad luck vs. lefty pitchers), he still manages a .326 OBP. That's not bad, considering the League Average is .334. And Paul Lo Duca's OBP? .311. That's right...Schneider actually got on base more than Lo Duca (and if you're curious about his BABIP, he's actually pretty lucky...a .266 BA with a .263 BABIP!). And Rey Ordonez? Well, he managed a .328 OBP one year with Tampa Bay to put him a point over league average, but it was an aberration in the extreme (as was the entire year).
                            "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
                            -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

                            Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                              He's still an improvement over Lo Duca.
                              Defensively, yes, offensively no. But Milledge + Lo Duca > to Church + Schneider.
                              ~MOE

                              Moonlight Graham
                              ...one game, no at-bats...


                              RisingApple.com

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by metfan13 View Post
                                If you invest $140 million or so in a pitcher, have two still young pitchers as key parts of your rotation, it pays to have a very good catcher behind the plate. They can afford his bat at #8 if the first 7 are pulling their weight.
                                I don't remember Lo Duca stunting the growth of any pitcher. Considering Maine and Perez were great last season says something about Lo Duca -- sure, it says much more about Peterson, but it just shows that Lo Duca wasn't just a slouch.

                                It's not a matter of where Schneider bats in the lineup or how he effects the offense, it's still the fact that we traded an extremely talented player for a all-defense catcher and a platoon outfielder.
                                ~MOE

                                Moonlight Graham
                                ...one game, no at-bats...


                                RisingApple.com

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