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  • OK, how much longer???

    Earlier this season, all the Willie Randolph apologists and supporters chastised those of us who wanted him gone already, saying "it's early, give him time", "stop pushing the panic button", "let it play out"...well, we've reached the quarter pole on the season and quite frankly this team may be the most mismanaged team in the league. How much longer do Mets fans have to suffer through the horrible mismanagement and how much longer can his apologists and supporters continue to support his leadership?

  • #2
    You rasie a valid, even urgent, issue.

    I've never been a 'Fire Willie' guy. Those that have been beating this drum for years are bores. ( ie:"doesn't he know pitcher x only performs well w/ no runners on base on even numbered days in night games ??" "He doesn't use the wheel !!!")The fact is, a manager's 'strategy' has very little effect on a teams record over the course of a season. A manager who makes an impact is a manager whose team buys into his leadership, adopts his persona or attitude. There are a number of players on this team that seem to have tuned him out, made his 'leadership' irrelevant. The tales of front office interference in the clubhouse is legion by now. I am not stating anything new or shocking. Is that his fault ? Let me put it this way; it doesn't matter. He has lost the team.
    Equally borish are the "you're all negative, I'm not posting anymore !!" phonies. It isn't being "negative" to discuss the obvious. Since mid-season last, this team is lethargic, sluggish, uninspired and no better than mediocre.
    The problem lies with certian players. Some of whom are not worth keeping, others whose imaturity and misplaced priorities have rendered them mediocre at best, and still others whose best role is not as a cornerstone of on & off field leadership.
    The way to deal with these issues is to do what baseball teams have been doing for over a hundred years. Change the manager. Is it fair ? Doesn't matter. Warning ... cliche comming ... you can't fire the players. So yes, it's time for a change. God help us if it's Sandy Alomar or Felipe Alou.

    Willie cannot go alone. As we've seen with the recent successes of Nelson Figeroa, Sosa, Oliver Perez & Hielman, the farce that is Peterson must be put to an end. His constant, inefective, in your ear style has screwed up another seasons worth of pitchers. I thought Wagners recent remarks about Pelfrey were telling & a not too subtle indictment of Pererson's harmful ways. He said a pitcher has to be out their focusing on his game, not worrying about his arm angle and mechanics after every pitch. He said that's all fine and good inbeetween starts, but once the game starts, time to do your job. Interesting.
    There was a game a few weeks ago when Perez was making throwing motions in between pitches in an attempt to find his proper arm slot. Another example of how this overbearing, self agrandizing, control freak has gotten these pitchers heads so far up their arses they are unable to get out of their own way and perform.
    There was a reason he and the artful Howe never made it past the first round in Oakland. This joke has to go. Replacing him with a coach that actually helps pitchers would have a greater impact than replacing the manager. If he stays when Willie goes, be prepared for more of the same inefective pitching by confused, unfocused pitchers.

    Comment


    • #3
      drop 3 out of 4 to the worst team in the division...and a 3-4 record in a 7 game homestand against the Reds and Nats...that is disgusting.

      Nice ending to the game...get doubled off of 3rd on a line drive with 1 out. No excuse for it to ever happen in that situation.

      Comment


      • #4
        I chalk that play in the 9th up to rotten luck. Reyes trying to go from 1st to 3rd on a bunt in the 8th, THAT is inexcusable.

        Originally posted by whoisonit View Post
        Willie cannot go alone. As we've seen with the recent successes of Nelson Figeroa, Sosa, Oliver Perez & Hielman, the farce that is Peterson must be put to an end. His constant, inefective, in your ear style has screwed up another seasons worth of pitchers. I thought Wagners recent remarks about Pelfrey were telling & a not too subtle indictment of Pererson's harmful ways. He said a pitcher has to be out their focusing on his game, not worrying about his arm angle and mechanics after every pitch. He said that's all fine and good inbeetween starts, but once the game starts, time to do your job. Interesting.
        There was a game a few weeks ago when Perez was making throwing motions in between pitches in an attempt to find his proper arm slot. Another example of how this overbearing, self agrandizing, control freak has gotten these pitchers heads so far up their arses they are unable to get out of their own way and perform.
        There was a reason he and the artful Howe never made it past the first round in Oakland. This joke has to go. Replacing him with a coach that actually helps pitchers would have a greater impact than replacing the manager. If he stays when Willie goes, be prepared for more of the same inefective pitching by confused, unfocused pitchers.
        Put aside your blind, stupid Peterson hate for a moment. Here are the Mets' offensive rankings in the NL:
        Runs-10th
        Hits-13th
        Doubles-14th
        Triples-3rd
        HR-11th
        BA-10th
        OBP-6th
        SLG-10th
        SB-4th

        Let's compare that to their pitching:
        ERA-5th
        Wins-7th
        Losses-11th
        IP-16th
        SO-6th
        BB-10th

        With the exception of IP, the pitching is pretty good. This is WITH Aaron Heilman and Jorge Sosa stinking it up. It's not Peterson's fault that A) The starters aren't going deep or B) Willie is making 100 pitching changes.

        The guy you should be advocating to be fired is Howard Johnson. The Mets offense is one of the worst in the league and the real problem for their struggles. Today they lost 1-0. You gonna blame that on the pitching and Rick Peterson?


        I digress. The point is Willie needs to go. He's clearly not contributing anything to this team. He will spark the team, but it will have to cost him his job.
        Last edited by NYMets523; 05-15-2008, 01:25 PM.
        "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

        "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

        "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

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        • #5
          Willie is not my favorite person. I never took a liking to him. But i also understand that a baseball manager really doesnt have much effect over the course of a season, wins and losses wise.

          But with all that said......this upcoming road trip may very well determine his job.
          "all the mets road wins against the dodgers this year have occured at Dodger Stadium"---Ralph Kiner

          "Blind people came to the park just to listen to him pitch"---Reggie Jackson, talking about Tom Seaver

          Comment


          • #6
            Just checked the schedule. They have an off-day Monday. I think Willie is gone by then. He'd probably be fired tomorrow if they didn't have the Yankee series
            "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

            "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

            "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree that Willie will have to go. This can't be blamed on what the media will call "a hangover" from last year's collapse. For six straight months now the Mets have been playing under .500 ball. Everyone realizes that a manager can not do anything about players not hitting and not making plays, but as was stated earlier in this thread, a manager is best served as an example to his players. They go as he goes, and that's bad news for this team.

              Willie's laid back bs attitude may be this team's undoing. His persona in "trusting his guys" even when they suck is something this team has embraced. It has created a team that simply does not care at times because they know he'll continue to go with them, no matter what. He instills no accountability and no sense of urgency in these players because he's "even keeled" Willie. As long as he acts like not winning is no big deal, then the players will follow suite.

              You saw today's post game as a prime example. Billy Wagner was 100% correct and justified for what he said. If the Mets had 25 Wagner attitudes on this team, they would be 10 games over instead of losing 4 out of 7 to the Nats and Reds.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                Put aside your blind, stupid Peterson hate for a moment..
                Hey 523, can you do me a favor and stop using the word "stupid" when referring to someone's opinion.

                Just leave out the "stupid" part, unless you are referring to the "stupid" Mets

                Thanks
                "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                ~~Al Gallagher


                God Bless America!

                Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

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                • #9
                  Wilie shouldn't go but a whole lot of dead weight needs to go. I am not really a hot seat guy at this stage but I really think that if any one should be on the hot seat it's Omar, not Willie. Why is Willie to blame when the team is getting very little production at all from SS, CF, 1b, 2b and until recently LF? Plus while Mr. Wright has decent power numbers he isn't doing so well overall with hitting with RISP, nor fielding. There are no options on the bench to boost production, so exactly what is Willie supposed to do? Dig in his trunk and trot out to second himself? Omar has to get a better, feistier mix on the field.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LostMet View Post
                    I really think that if any one should be on the hot seat it's Omar, not Willie. Why is Willie to blame when the team is getting very little production at all from SS, CF, 1b, 2b and until recently LF? Plus while Mr. Wright has decent power numbers he isn't doing so well overall with hitting with RISP, nor fielding. There are no options on the bench to boost production, so exactly what is Willie supposed to do? Dig in his trunk and trot out to second himself? Omar has to get a better, feistier mix on the field.
                    Hmmm, I think it is less of Omar's fault than Willie's IMO... Omar has put a pretty decent team on the field.. Its not his fault that they arent producing.. I mean you dont want to blame Willie for lack of production from the SS, CF, 1B and 2B, but all of those positions, with the exception of 2B, I wouldnt fault Omar.. I mean we have Beltran at F and Reyes at SS... Who wouldnt want either of those 2 for the most part on their team?

                    Omar made a mistake IMO by signing Castillo... He made a trade to get Delgado, who was coming off a great year with the Fish... Although his 1st year with the Mets saw his average go down, he still put up some great #'s... How could anyone know that he would "just lose it" a year later?

                    I just have a real hard time blaming a GM that out together a team that one year earlier won the division and was 1 game from the WS with pretty much the same team we have on the field today besides a better catcher, a better RF'er and the addition of Johan Santana...

                    The guy flat out put a good team together to compete and they are dropping the ball...
                    "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                    ~~Al Gallagher


                    God Bless America!

                    Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                    Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Baseball Guru View Post
                      Hmmm, I think it is less of Omar's fault than Willie's IMO... Omar has put a pretty decent team on the field.. Its not his fault that they arent producing.. I mean you dont want to blame Willie for lack of production from the SS, CF, 1B and 2B, but all of those positions, with the exception of 2B, I wouldnt fault Omar.. I mean we have Beltran at F and Reyes at SS... Who wouldnt want either of those 2 for the most part on their team?

                      Omar made a mistake IMO by signing Castillo... He made a trade to get Delgado, who was coming off a great year with the Fish... Although his 1st year with the Mets saw his average go down, he still put up some great #'s... How could anyone know that he would "just lose it" a year later?

                      I just have a real hard time blaming a GM that out together a team that one year earlier won the division and was 1 game from the WS with pretty much the same team we have on the field today besides a better catcher, a better RF'er and the addition of Johan Santana...

                      The guy flat out put a good team together to compete and they are dropping the ball...
                      I don't really disagree that much, that's why I am not really a "hot seat" guy. Guys have to produce and not make stupid plays. I am sure Willie "reminds" them. I am sure Omar is in the box banging his head against the wall. I wish they had more guys like Wiggy and Mitchell on the bench .... some attitude and fire or maybe intensity/buring drive. I usually don't think it plays that big a role but this team seems almost too quiet or too "professional" so it might help wake a few of 'em up. I reallly don't know. There are a lot of mediocre teams but not all of them cost $137 million. I know therte are other expensive clunkers at this stage I was just hoping the Mets wouldn't be one of them. But this team hasn't "felt" right to me since 2006. I don't even know what that means exactly but when you look at winning teams in any sport they have a different "feel" attitude, swagger, moxy...(pick your word) than others...a
                      way they go about their business...and to me, it doesn't feel that way with the Mets.

                      Actually the one guy who does on the Mets is Mr. quiet Maine. He goes out tries hard, is intense, gets pissed and seems to really care. The other day he just went out on the first pitch and pluncked that guy from the Nats. No messing around, no talking ...based on quotes in the paper guys noticed on both teams. No yapping in the paper about others, no finger pointing, no hiding either...just go out and get it done. All his wins have come after Mets losses.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There is a reason why Luis Castillo came so cheaply...first and foremost was his attitude and disruptive influence in the clubhouse. Secondly, was his knee problems. Third was his diminishing production.

                        It's not a coincidence that Reyes has struggled and appeared undisciplined/unfocused since his arrival.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Venti View Post
                          I agree that Willie will have to go. This can't be blamed on what the media will call "a hangover" from last year's collapse. For six straight months now the Mets have been playing under .500 ball. Everyone realizes that a manager can not do anything about players not hitting and not making plays, but as was stated earlier in this thread, a manager is best served as an example to his players. They go as he goes, and that's bad news for this team.

                          Willie's laid back bs attitude may be this team's undoing. His persona in "trusting his guys" even when they suck is something this team has embraced. It has created a team that simply does not care at times because they know he'll continue to go with them, no matter what. He instills no accountability and no sense of urgency in these players because he's "even keeled" Willie. As long as he acts like not winning is no big deal, then the players will follow suite.

                          You saw today's post game as a prime example. Billy Wagner was 100% correct and justified for what he said. If the Mets had 25 Wagner attitudes on this team, they would be 10 games over instead of losing 4 out of 7 to the Nats and Reds.
                          Thank you. You saved me a lot of typing. I agree 100% of every word you wrote!
                          you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
                          http://brooklyndodgermemories.freeforums.org/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            OK, so let's say Willie goes

                            Who then comes in?

                            I'm intrigued by the idea of Wally Backman, but I think the organization is too conservative to take a chance with his so-called "baggage."

                            I don't think Gary Carter is the answer. A lot of teammates thought he was a phony in his playing days.

                            Jerry Manuel is too closely associated with Willie and wouldn't really be a change.

                            Which one of the ex-managers out there would you really want to see? I don't recall that Lee Mazzilli was that well regarded.

                            The floor is open.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by VIBaseball View Post
                              Who then comes in?

                              I'm intrigued by the idea of Wally Backman, but I think the organization is too conservative to take a chance with his so-called "baggage."

                              I don't think Gary Carter is the answer. A lot of teammates thought he was a phony in his playing days.

                              Jerry Manuel is too closely associated with Willie and wouldn't really be a change.

                              Which one of the ex-managers out there would you really want to see? I don't recall that Lee Mazzilli was that well regarded.

                              The floor is open.
                              Manny Acta would have been a good fit (IMHO). Someone who speaks Spanish fluently would be good.
                              you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
                              http://brooklyndodgermemories.freeforums.org/

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