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Our Mets Hall of Fame, election 18

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  • Our Mets Hall of Fame, election 18

    Please limit your ballot to a maximum of 15 names.

    This is the eighteenth election for Our Mets Hall of Fame. Last time, we elected no one.

    For rules and specifications for this Hall of Fame, see:

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83894

    New on the ballot:

    Neil Allen
    Ray Burris
    Jose Cardenal
    Kelvin Chapman
    Dock Ellis
    Pete Falcone
    Ed Glynn
    Andy Hassler
    Richie Hebner
    Jesse Orosco
    Jeff Reardon
    Mike Scott
    Frank Taveras
    Wayne Twitchell

    Dropped from the last ballot:

    Butch Benton
    Juan Berenguer
    Dwight Bernard
    Mark Bruhert
    Mardie Cornejo
    Sergio Ferrer
    Gil Flores
    Tom Grieve
    Tom Hausman
    Ken Henderson
    Kevin Kobel
    Elliott Maddox
    Butch Metzger
    Alex Trevino

    Code:
    Mets Hall of Fame:
    
    Player:          Times on ballot:          Induction percentage:           When inducted:
    
    Tommie Agee             2                           80.00                   8th election 
    Jerry Grote             1                           100.00                  5th election
    Bud Harrelson           1                           100.00                  4th election
    Gil Hodges              1                           77.78                   1st election
    Ron Hunt                11                          77.78                   12th election
    Cleon Jones             1                           100.00                  2nd election
    Dave Kingman            2                           81.25                   15th election
    Jerry Koosman           1                           100.00                  6th election
    Ed Kranepool            1                           88.89                   1st election
    Jon Matlack             1                           81.82                   10th election
    Lee Mazzilli            1                           75.00                   15th election
    Tug McGraw              1                           90.00                   4th election
    Felix Millan            1                           77.78                   12th election
    Tom Seaver              1                           91.67                   6th election
    Rusty Staub             1                           85.71                   11th election
    John Stearns            3                           83.33                   16th election
    Ron Swoboda             10                          75.00                   13th election
    
    
    Manager:          Times on ballot:          Induction percentage:           When inducted:
    
    Gil Hodges               1                           90.00                   1st Mgr. election
    Davey Johnson            1                           100.00                  1st Mgr. election
    Bobby Valentine          2                           100.00                  2nd Mgr. election

    Code:
    Holdovers:
    
    Player:          Times on ballot:          Previous percentage:          High percentage: 
    
    Yogi Berra              14                      14.29                        41.67
    Bruce Boisclair         5                       7.14                         12.50
    Ed Charles              12                      14.29                        36.36
    Donn Clendenon          10                      64.29                        68.75
    Doug Flynn              2                       14.29                        16.67      
    Steve Henderson         2                       14.29                        16.67
    Ron Hodges              6                       14.29                        25.00
    Skip Lockwood           4                       57.14                        66.67
    Willie Mays             7                       28.57                        62.50
    John Milner             8                       42.86                        50.00
    Willie Montanez         1                       7.14                         7.14
    Dale Murray             1                       7.14                         7.14
    Dan Norman              2                       7.14                         8.33
    John Pacella            2                       14.29                        8.33
    Len Randle              2                       14.29                        8.33
    Nolan Ryan              13                      28.57                        50.00
    Warren Spahn            13                      7.14                         36.36
    Craig Swan              6                       42.86                        62.50
    Bobby Valentine         2                       7.14                         16.67
    Joel Youngblood         2                       21.43                        33.33
    Pat Zachry              2                       7.14                         8.33
    
    Holdovers dropped:
    
    Last year of eligibility:
    
    Yogi Berra
    Number of voters in each election:

    Election 1: 18
    Election 2: 8
    Election 3: 9
    Election 4: 10
    Election 5: 9
    Election 6: 12
    Election 7: 10
    Election 8: 10
    Election 9: 10
    Election 10: 11
    Election 11: 14
    Election 12: 9
    Election 13: 8
    Election 14: 15
    Election 15: 16
    Election 16: 12
    Election 17: 14

    Manager election 1: 10
    Manager election 2: 11
    Manager election 3: 8
    75
    Neil Allen
    2.67%
    2
    Yogi Berra
    2.67%
    2
    Bruce Boisclair
    1.33%
    1
    Ray Burris
    0.00%
    0
    Jose Cardenal
    0.00%
    0
    Ray Chapman
    0.00%
    0
    Ed Charles
    1.33%
    1
    Donn Clendenon
    14.67%
    11
    Dock Ellis
    1.33%
    1
    Pete Falcone
    0.00%
    0
    Doug Flynn
    1.33%
    1
    Ed Glynn
    1.33%
    1
    Andy Hassler
    0.00%
    0
    Richie Hebner
    0.00%
    0
    Steve Henderson
    1.33%
    1
    Ron Hodges
    1.33%
    1
    Skip Lockwood
    13.33%
    10
    Willie Mays
    4.00%
    3
    John Milner
    5.33%
    4
    Willie Montanez
    0.00%
    0
    Dale Murray
    1.33%
    1
    Dan Norman
    1.33%
    1
    Jesse Orosco
    14.67%
    11
    John Pacella
    0.00%
    0
    Len Randle
    1.33%
    1
    Jeff Reardon
    0.00%
    0
    Nolan Ryan
    4.00%
    3
    Mike Scott
    0.00%
    0
    Warren Spahn
    1.33%
    1
    Craig Swan
    12.00%
    9
    Frank Taveras
    0.00%
    0
    Wayne Twitchell
    0.00%
    0
    Bobby Valentine
    2.67%
    2
    Joel Youngblood
    2.67%
    2
    Pat Zachry
    1.33%
    1
    None of the above
    5.33%
    4

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    How on earth did I miss Jesse Orosco's name. If he misses by one vote from being unanimous blame me.

    Glad to see Donn Clendenon getting early support. He's gotten the short end of the stick in the Met mythology with guys like Al Weis getting more run from the 69 Series even though Donn hit 3 HR and won the MVP (not Swoboda nor Agee nor Weis).

    It was the acquisition of Clendenon mid-way through the season that was perhaps the final piece to the puzzle as he hit 12 HR in barely half a season back when only a handful of players in each league were topping 30. Teammates like Garrett and Shamsky have both been quoted as describing him as the final piece to the puzzle, making them a contender.

    To show that this was no fluke, the following year he set the Mets single season RBI record with 97 and in under 400 AB. Hopefully this is the year he finally gets in. While his time was brief with the club was I think he merits an exception becuase of how high he rose.

    Comment


    • #3
      Indeed, PVNICK, Orosco's a no-brainer. Heh, I'm still baffled how Seaver wasn't unanimous. But since you've mentioned it early, if either Tony or James can add your vote to Jesse's name, I'm sure they'll oblige. Either way, though, I'm pretty sure he'll get in on this ballot.

      As well...

      Clendenon should be in there already.

      Lockwood, whose vote took some prodding from some other folks. I'm convinced.

      Mays. Even the organization has unofficially retired his number, for goodness sake.

      Milner. What's it gonna take? Drafted in '68 at age 18, John finished third in the '72 RoY voting, and was noticeably missing after the notorious '77 dealings. A key component to what made the Mets legitimate before 1978, John Milner was power personified, at least for the Mets, from '72 through '77, leading all Mets in home runs four separate times. I'll continue to support him.

      Ryan. Again, I'll point out how Ryan was another key ingredient to winning in the '69 post-season, and recorded virtually 10% of his record lifetime K's with the Mets. He may not get elected, for this is his 14th ballot, but I'll continue to support him right on through his 15th.

      Swan. C'mon already, I say give Craig Swan his props for 1,230 innings during twelve seasons on mediocre and downright terrible Mets teams. Hell, I'd put him in just for once leading the league in ERA. Another hard luck player who deserved better, working his butt off between '73 and '84.


      P.S. Not tryin' to be a snitch, but evidently Mongoose either can't count or couldn't give a patootie about the balloting rules, despite the previous reminder. I count 16 votes.

      P.P.S. I'm content in the knowledge that Berra will finally not be on the next ballot.
      Last edited by milladrive; 04-03-2009, 12:27 PM.
      Put it in the books.

      Comment


      • #4
        Let's Go Mets!, ReyesOfHope:

        Explain why you chose none of the above, please.

        Comment


        • #5
          We've had two people say Orosco is NOT a Mets HoF'er?!?!? Huh?!?!?
          "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
          -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

          Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

          Comment


          • #6
            My continued strong support for

            Skip Lockwood
            Willie Mays
            John Milner
            Craig Swan


            New votes this round

            Donn Clendenon - I've been considering him for a while. The strong arguments in his favor have swayed me. I will eventually vote for Ray Knight, the other WS MVP, and Clendenon had a better Met career and a more impactful role in the championship season. We've only won 2 so he deserves to be placed on a pedestal.

            Jesse Orosco - Uh . . . Let's Go Mets!, ReyesOfHope . . . let me get this straight . . . Jesse Orosco is not a Met HOF'er ? REALLY ??? Please, please tell us why . . .

            Neil Allen - I'm not sure why I voted for Niel Allen but I liked him, he was good, I hated the way fans turned on him when he stuggled plus he helped land us Mex. Really not a Met HOF'er, but he was good and we didn't always have good players. This will probably be the only round I support him though.

            Ed Glynn - The Flushing Flash. Born and bred in the shadow of Shea. A little Met fan who grew up to be a Shea Stadium hot dog vendor, HUT DAWGS ! HUT DAWGS HEA ! Talk about living the dream ... but wait ! He became a real, live, actual New York Met. We are the Mets, Ed Glynn is a most deserving Hall of Famer. His resume is unmatched. My support shall never falter.

            Comment


            • #7
              This Orosco thing is a mystery. How could anyone not have voted for him? I vote once again for Clendennon, Swan, and Lockwood. I remain on the fence about Ryan and Milner, but I may vote for them next time. The problem of course is that Milner was such a disappointment. The "Year of the Hammer" never really came, and yet he was on the team long enough to have made a serious contribution.
              sigpic Please check out my book, Mets Fan
              Please check out my blog, Mets Fan Blog
              Read about my new book The Last Days of Shea

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                Let's Go Mets!, ReyesOfHope:

                Explain why you chose none of the above, please.
                I vote for great ballplayers - perennial All-Star types - not average or above average players who may have made a meaningful contribution here or there.

                Jesse Orosco was a slightly above average MLB reliever. He only finished higher than 9th in the NL in saves just one time. Call him a Favorite if you will for his longevity and association with the 1986 Mets, but a fave does not equal a Hall of Famer in my book. Plus when I compare names like Orosco to the names in Monument Park at Yankee Stadium..."voting" him to a Mets' Hall of Fame is embarrassing.

                Isn't there a Favorite Met poll somewhere around here? When people include the names like Ed Glynn, Milner, or Lockwood, etc...these are faves, not Hall of Fame types.
                Last edited by ReyesOfHope; 04-06-2009, 08:10 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ReyesOfHope View Post
                  I vote for great ballplayers - perennial All-Star types - not average or above average players who may have made a meaningful contribution here or there.

                  Jesse Orosco was a slightly above average MLB reliever. He only finished higher than 9th in the NL in saves just one time. Call him a Favorite if you will for his longevity and association with the 1986 Mets, but a fave does not equal a Hall of Famer in my book. Plus when I compare names like Orosco to the names in Monument Park at Yankee Stadium..."voting" him to a Mets' Hall of Fame is embarrassing.

                  Isn't there a Favorite Met poll somewhere around here? When people include the names like Ed Glynn, Milner, or Lockwood, etc...these are faves, not Hall of Fame types.
                  ReyesOfHope, you're missing the entire intention of these elections. They're not designed for Cooperstown qualifications of legend, legacy, statistics, and overall contribution to all of baseball. They're designed for qualifications of legend, legacy, statistics, and overall contribution to the METS.

                  Even Monument Park is more akin to the retired numbers on Shea's (may shea rest in pieces) outfield wall. It's not what's going on here. This isn't about black ink or gray ink standards. It's about blue ink and orange ink standards. Get the idea?
                  Put it in the books.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Jesse Orosco was a slightly above average MLB reliever."

                    A career ERA+ of 125 is "average"? Since when? Or, if we go by year...

                    1979: 74 (admittedly terrible)
                    1980: N/A (Spent in the Minors)
                    1981: 222
                    1982: 134
                    1983: 247
                    1984: 138
                    1985: 128
                    1986: 153
                    1987: 86 (with arm problems)

                    With 100 defining league average, how was Orosco "league average"? Discounting his rookie year and the year he had arm problems, he's 28 points ABOVE league average AT WORST.

                    Then there's Skip Lockwood. Here's his Mets stats by ERA+...

                    1975: 232
                    1976: 123
                    1977: 110
                    1978: 97 (had arm problems)
                    1979: 244 (!)

                    Again, 100 represents league average.
                    "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
                    -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

                    Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dalkowski110 View Post
                      "Jesse Orosco was a slightly above average MLB reliever."

                      A career ERA+ of 125 is "average"? Since when? Or, if we go by year...

                      1979: 74 (admittedly terrible)
                      1980: N/A (Spent in the Minors)
                      1981: 222
                      1982: 134
                      1983: 247
                      1984: 138
                      1985: 128
                      1986: 153
                      1987: 86 (with arm problems)

                      With 100 defining league average, how was Orosco "league average"? Discounting his rookie year and the year he had arm problems, he's 28 points ABOVE league average AT WORST.

                      Then there's Skip Lockwood. Here's his Mets stats by ERA+...

                      1975: 232
                      1976: 123
                      1977: 110
                      1978: 97 (had arm problems)
                      1979: 244 (!)

                      Again, 100 represents league average.
                      Did Orosco's career end in 1987? I stated, "MLB pitcher" referring to his career, and I identified Saves as the primary criteria for evaluation. Which criteria will be used most often by Cooperstown voters when considering relief pitchers? Hmmmmm....

                      Historically, Orosco did not distinguish himself as a closer, did he?
                      Last edited by ReyesOfHope; 04-06-2009, 04:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by milladrive View Post
                        ReyesOfHope, you're missing the entire intention of these elections. They're not designed for Cooperstown qualifications of legend, legacy, statistics, and overall contribution to all of baseball. They're designed for qualifications of legend, legacy, statistics, and overall contribution to the METS.

                        Even Monument Park is more akin to the retired numbers on Shea's (may shea rest in pieces) outfield wall. It's not what's going on here. This isn't about black ink or gray ink standards. It's about blue ink and orange ink standards. Get the idea?
                        Where were these "rules" posted? Since they were not, I'll use my own criteria and standards. I'm not going to embarrass the Met organization by lowering standards to those that are blue and orange. A Yankee fan would laugh his rear end off at the idea of Rusty Staub or Jesse Orosco in a team HoF. If anything, their inclusion would reveal how pathetic the team has played for the majority of its history.

                        If you want to make a list of most "memorable" Mets, I'd be happy to vote for Jesse Orosco.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "Where were these "rules" posted?"

                          It was implied in the first HoF ballot that Cowtipper posted...try reading inbetween the lines [italics are mine]...

                          "This is my little project to create a Mets Hall of Fame. This is how it is going to work:

                          I'm going to start by putting all the 1962 guys on the ballot. You vote for who you think should be in the Hall. 75% puts someone in, 5% keeps someone on the ballot. For the election after this, I will remove all the people who didn't reach 5% (and all the people who were elected), and add all the people from the 1963 Mets who didn't play in 1962. That will go on and on until we reach 2008. Therefore, everyone who played for the Mets will end up being on the ballot at one point in time."

                          If that's not good enough, why not ask Cowtipper, since he created the poll?

                          "Did Orosco's career end in 1987? I stated, "MLB pitcher" referring to his career,"

                          See above...

                          "and I identified Saves as the primary criteria for evaluation."

                          Saves are a nearly useless statistic to begin with when used as a stand-alone and ignoring save chances, blown saves, and holds; becoming even moreso when we consider the era Orosco pitched in when he wore the Orange and Blue.

                          "I'm not going to embarrass the Met organization by lowering standards to those that are blue and orange."

                          So why didn't you vote for Willie Mays, arguably the greatest center fielder in baseball history?
                          Last edited by Dalkowski110; 04-06-2009, 04:19 PM.
                          "They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
                          -Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

                          Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ReyesOfHope View Post
                            when I compare names like Orosco to the names in Monument Park at Yankee Stadium..."voting" him to a Mets' Hall of Fame is embarrassing.
                            Originally posted by ReyesOfHope View Post
                            I'm not going to embarrass the Met organization by lowering standards to those that are blue and orange. A Yankee fan would laugh his rear end off at the idea of Rusty Staub or Jesse Orosco in a team HoF. If anything, their inclusion would reveal how pathetic the team has played for the majority of its history.
                            Wow, ummm . . . wow.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ReyesOfHope View Post
                              I'm not going to embarrass the Met organization by lowering standards to those that are blue and orange. A Yankee fan would laugh his rear end off at the idea of Rusty Staub or Jesse Orosco in a team HoF. If anything, their inclusion would reveal how pathetic the team has played for the majority of its history.
                              This is OUR Met Hall of Fame, not the organization's. We are electing Orosco based off his Met career, not overall career.
                              "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                              "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                              "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                              Comment

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