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Did Jerry Manuel 'Throw' Saturday's Game?

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  • Did Jerry Manuel 'Throw' Saturday's Game?

    Perhaps that's a little strong - but to me, it's clear Manuel conceded the game, like throwing in a hand of cards before it's played. And it's a horrendous, indeed, fireable (in my opinion) offense by a major league manager - for two clear reasons:

    1. Every game counts, May as much as September. It's just not clear thinking - or good math - to simply lay down the way Manuel did yesterday. From the spot-starting Redding (who in his eighth ML season still has not learned to get ahead in the count) to a line-up almost entirely composed of bench players to the attitude towards Josh Johnson ... this was laying down. Quitting. Not trying. Abandoning the attempt to win. A disgrace.

    2. 41,000 people paid good money to see this game. For the Mets management to condone the visible and obvious throwing/concession of a Saturday afternoon game in a packed house was horrendous business - basic malfeasance in terms of this franchise.

    And don't think the players don't know when management doesn't care if they win.

    What do you think? And is this emblematic of Mets management?
    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

  • #2
    I posted this in the Season section:

    We weren't going to win this game anyway. The Marlins had the advantage with Johnson and Redding stinks. It's better to rest everyone at once than spread it out. Would you rather lose one game with a big defecit or have a lot of close games later on?

    It's funny how people are up in arms about this. Check out this game from 2007 (I went to it)

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/bo...00708030.shtml

    Willie started Newhan in LF, Anderson in CF(!), and Green in RF. Easily the worst OF possible. He let Anderson pinch hit in 2 critial spots where he struck out. He didn't have Milledge in CF. He didn't bat Alou until the 9th when they were winning 4-2. He said after the game that he didn't know Alou was available to pinch hit. They did win, barely, but it was worse lineup managing than yesterday. Willie was willing to waste a start from our then-ace.
    Even if they started Sheffield, Castillo, and Wright, they weren't going to score 7 runs off of Johnson anyway.

    As for the people spending money to go to the game, yeah sucks when you go to a game that the team loses but it's too bad. It's like when the Mets always rested Piazza on Sunday games so people who went to those never saw them. Deal with it.
    Last edited by NYMets523; 05-31-2009, 12:00 PM.
    "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

    "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

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    • #3
      Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
      I posted this in the Season section:



      Even if they started Sheffield, Castillo, and Wright, they weren't going to score 7 runs off of Johnson anyway.

      As for the people spending money to go to the game, yeah sucks when you go to a game that the team loses but it's too bad. It's like when the Mets always rested Piazza on Sunday games so people who went to those never saw them. Deal with it.
      No, I'd prefer not to deal with it - and it bothers me that even Mets fans have that "we're gonna lose anyway" attitude.

      We need a Durocher-Martin style manager for this club - not quitters.
      Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

      Comment


      • #4
        Even if they started Sheffield, Castillo, and Wright, they weren't going to score 7 runs off of Johnson anyway.
        This seems to be the reponse for a lot of people. A dumb response because you don't know going into the game that your starter will give up 7 runs in four innings. If you did, then you shouldn't start him. Plus, why do you assume that a regular Mets lineup couldn't beat Johnson or score 7 runs? Just because they haven't done it yet doesn't mean that they won't do it.

        The charge is correct. Manuel didn't think his team could win that day, so he basically gave up the game. I agree that such a defeatest attitude is horrendous. That was basically a minor league lineup on Sat.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Strawman View Post
          No, I'd prefer not to deal with it - and it bothers me that even Mets fans have that "we're gonna lose anyway" attitude.

          We need a Durocher-Martin style manager for this club - not quitters.
          Yeah, an arrogant, angry drunk is just what we need to manage this team

          Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
          This seems to be the reponse for a lot of people. A dumb response because you don't know going into the game that your starter will give up 7 runs in four innings. If you did, then you shouldn't start him. Plus, why do you assume that a regular Mets lineup couldn't beat Johnson or score 7 runs? Just because they haven't done it yet doesn't mean that they won't do it.
          Look at Johnson's career numbers against the Mets.
          "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

          "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

          "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
            Yeah, an arrogant, angry drunk is just what we need to manage this team


            Look at Johnson's career numbers against the Mets.
            Look, the Mets used to beat Nolan Ryan. They used to beat Steve Carlton. They got to Mike Scott during his best years. They beat Fergesun Jenkins in 1969. You have to be willing to fight, not to quit.

            Why so accepting of this non-strategy? Why give a pass to quitting?

            We haven't had a real battling manager since Bobby Valentine. Haven't been to the Series since he left either. Far from perfect, mind you, but also totally oblivious to salaries, the so-called "book," and basically calling a forfeit in front of 41,000 paying customers.
            Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

            Comment


            • #7
              This was the right time to rest the overworked regulars

              I agree with NYMets523 150%. We can throw a tantrum about Manuel conceding the game before it started, but the fact is that Johnson owns the Mets and Redding is an overaged minor leaguer. The game went exactly as I'd feared it would. I too would be up in arms had I paid good money to attend the game, especially if I'd driven 100+ miles, as some do, but come on, even at full strength the Mets have proven time and time again that they can't beat this Johnson.

              Instead of attacking Manuel, we should all be asking why in hell the Mets - even at full strength - are familiar with this young whippersnapper and they haven't yet been able to find out how to beat him!!! Whose fault is it that the Mets can't beat him?

              As for Redding, the Mets probably signed him out of desperation with their horrid rotation, never mind their pitching prospects. Of course, it was also up to him to pitch for outs and not allow the Marlins to spray the ball everywhere a fielder wasn't. Whose fault is it that the Marlins scored 7 runs? Are the Marlins that familiar with him? I'll bet not!

              As for the bullpen, Sean Green is the new Aaron Heilman, Brian Stokes is a veteran of the awful Devil Rays pitching staff, and J.J. Putz is a - forgive me for this vulgar Yiddish word - putz. We'll need the luck of the Irish to get past those hemorrhoids commonly known as the Phillies and Dodgers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by elancaster View Post
                As for Redding, the Mets probably signed him out of desperation with their horrid rotation, never mind their pitching prospects.
                I completely agree here, but no so much as to say

                ... Sean Green is the new Aaron Heilman, Brian Stokes is a veteran of the awful Devil Rays pitching staff, ...
                I think that they were over used at first, than Jerry realized that, and than ironically, under used them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by elancaster View Post
                  I agree with NYMets523 150%. We can throw a tantrum about Manuel conceding the game before it started, but the fact is that Johnson owns the Mets and Redding is an overaged minor leaguer. The game went exactly as I'd feared it would. I too would be up in arms had I paid good money to attend the game, especially if I'd driven 100+ miles, as some do, but come on, even at full strength the Mets have proven time and time again that they can't beat this Johnson.
                  This is pathetic - evens Mets fans are conditioned to give games away, to concede, to forfeit, to lay down.

                  I mean, kee-rist, it's not Sandy Koufax, it's just Josh Johnson. Woo-hoo. To throw the game the way Manuel did is a disgrace to the franchise and to the fans.

                  And frankly, Mets fans who agree with this "strategy" should feel just fine if the team finishes a game out.
                  Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    unless you went to saturdays game, stop whining.... 5 out of 6 is a good homestand. They could have won regardless, but Redding was his usual crappy self.......

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by areezee View Post
                      unless you went to saturdays game, stop whining.... 5 out of 6 is a good homestand. They could have won regardless, but Redding was his usual crappy self.......
                      Hey, listen pallie - the only whining I hear in these parts is from people who don't like a little honest debate - it's the screeching, "defend management at all costs" kind of whining that 99% of baseball fans can't stand.

                      And yeah, I was at Saturday's game with my kid...
                      Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The only guy who was rested was Wright (who was something like 4-20 on the homestand). Sheffield does not play everyday and he should sit against a tough righty like Johnson. Manuel started Beltran who had to leave the game so you can't get on him for that. He wanted to give Valdez a start. I doubt Met fans are really crying over Castillo not starting. Take into account they don't have Monday off for travel either.

                        If you were at the game, sucks for you but too bad. It's sad how whiny Met fans have become the past few years.
                        Last edited by NYMets523; 06-01-2009, 12:12 PM.
                        "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                        "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                        "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The only guy who was rested was Wright
                          LOL, didn't you defend the lineup because it rested everyone on the same day so the didn't play 3 or 4 close games for the rest of the week?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
                            LOL, didn't you defend the lineup because it rested everyone on the same day so the didn't play 3 or 4 close games for the rest of the week?
                            Then I realized the only everyday player that was rested was Wright. Sheffield only plays 5 out of 7 days and Castillo would have been rested anyway.

                            I still would rather rest everyone on one day.
                            "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                            "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                            "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                              Then I realized the only everyday player that was rested was Wright. Sheffield only plays 5 out of 7 days and Castillo would have been rested anyway.

                              I still would rather rest everyone on one day.
                              That's just crazy - recent to this game?
                              Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                              Comment

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