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The Mets Ownership / Management Thread

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  • I can't say I'm shocked, but...

    http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...ty=newyork&wjb


    Mets may be done adding in outfield
    Jan 3, 2013 8:59 PM
    By Adam Rubin

    Although Scott Hairston remains a free agent, a team insider said it's conceivable the Mets actually will not add an outfielder on a major league contract this offseason.

    Lucas Duda appears penciled in as the primary left fielder. As for center field and right field, that may very well be a pair of platoons. The lefty hitters would be Kirk Nieuwenhuis in center field and Mike Baxter in right field.

    The righty hitters? That would be more of a competition. But Collin Cowgill, acquired from the Oakland Athletics, is a logical choice for one spot -- especially since he already is on the 40-man roster.

    A team insider said Justin Turner actually should get strong consideration as a platoon outfielder too, despite no experience out there. That could also allow the Mets to have both Brandon Hicks and Omar Quintanilla on the roster as infielders.

    Otherwise, if Turner is viewed primarily as an infielder, newly signed Andrew Brown or Brian Bixler would appear contenders for that second righty-hitting outfield spot.

    Sandy Alderson did not return calls Wednesday and Thursday seeking insight about what remains for the Mets to do this offseason.



    The Wilpons are determined to stuff as much money in their pockets as possible.

    This probably isn't a 70 win team now. A few injuries and prospects not living up to their hype and it's not even a 60 win team.

    Payroll is down to $75 million. And they raised ticket prices, too.

    This whole situation is an obscene gesture to us all.
    sigpic

    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

    Comment


    • http://www.nypost.com/p/news/busines...aSjb5trNWTNwTP

      Amazin’! Mets owners refi $450M in loans

      The owners of the Mets have scored some financial relief.

      After a months-long process, team owners Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz have refinanced $450 million in loans borrowed against cable network SportsNet New York, which airs Mets games, The Post has learned.

      While the financial terms could not be learned, some of the proceeds are expected to go toward funding the cash-strapped team’s day-to-day operations.

      The Mets declined comment. SNY did not return calls for comment.

      Sterling Equities — the sports, real-estate and investment firm owned by Wilpon and Katz — owns about 65 percent of SNY. Time Warner and Comcast are also partners in the channel.

      The owners have been working with Bank of America since October to line up the refinancing. By completing it before year-end, they have also avoided higher capital gains taxes on their SNY investment.

      The refinancing comes just days after Standard & Poor’s downgraded the credit rating for Citi Field to BB — two notches below investment grade — from BB+ with a negative outlook.

      The firm is concerned there will be “slight cash flow declines in the near future” before the Mets’ finances stabilize. S&P estimates that stadium revenue fell 6 percent last year, with seat revenue suffering the most significant decline of 13 percent.

      Suite sales were the saving grace, rising 11 percent — but S&P said that was due, in large part, to the Mets’ parent, Sterling, now owning “about 20 percent of the suites.” Those Sterling-owned suites are used by minority owners like hedge fund billionaire Steve Cohen.

      Rival ratings firm Moody’s holds a different view and in November upgraded its outlook on the ballpark.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WEB View Post
        http://www.nypost.com/p/news/busines...aSjb5trNWTNwTP

        Amazin’! Mets owners refi $450M in loans

        The owners of the Mets have scored some financial relief.

        After a months-long process, team owners Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz have refinanced $450 million in loans borrowed against cable network SportsNet New York, which airs Mets games, The Post has learned.

        While the financial terms could not be learned, some of the proceeds are expected to go toward funding the cash-strapped team’s day-to-day operations.

        The Mets declined comment. SNY did not return calls for comment.

        Sterling Equities — the sports, real-estate and investment firm owned by Wilpon and Katz — owns about 65 percent of SNY. Time Warner and Comcast are also partners in the channel.

        The owners have been working with Bank of America since October to line up the refinancing. By completing it before year-end, they have also avoided higher capital gains taxes on their SNY investment.

        The refinancing comes just days after Standard & Poor’s downgraded the credit rating for Citi Field to BB — two notches below investment grade — from BB+ with a negative outlook.

        The firm is concerned there will be “slight cash flow declines in the near future” before the Mets’ finances stabilize. S&P estimates that stadium revenue fell 6 percent last year, with seat revenue suffering the most significant decline of 13 percent.

        Suite sales were the saving grace, rising 11 percent — but S&P said that was due, in large part, to the Mets’ parent, Sterling, now owning “about 20 percent of the suites.” Those Sterling-owned suites are used by minority owners like hedge fund billionaire Steve Cohen.

        Rival ratings firm Moody’s holds a different view and in November upgraded its outlook on the ballpark.
        This was already reported as in the works:

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...s-fans-suffer/

        Mets Owners May Pay Themselves Big Dividend While Team's Fans Suffer


        Taking advantage of low interest rates and the escalating value of regional sports networks, the owners of the New York Mets are working with bankers to move debt from their baseball team to their cable network and perhaps pay themselves a hefty dividend in the process, according to the New York Times.

        The Mets have lost roughly $100 million over the past two seasons because of falling attendance and high debt payments. The team’s owners, Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz, leveraged the Mets and the cable network they own two-thirds of (Comcast and Time Warner Cable own the remainder), SportsNet New York, to the hilt. For years the two men relied on fake profits from Ponzi schemer Bernie Madoff to backstop their finances. But when Madoff was exposed as a fraud, the Mets lost their ATM.

        With revenues falling and no ATM, the team was forced to reduce their payroll by $50 million before this season. It showed on the diamond, as the Mets finished 74-88, 24 games behind the first place Washington Nationals. The Mets only drew 2.24 million fans at Citi Field this season, 17th among MLB’s 30 teams and over 100,000 less than they drew in 2011, despite lowering ticket prices significantly for many seats before the season began.

        Wilpon and Katz are looking to refinance the $450 million of debt on SNY to pay down down some of the baseball team’s roughly $330 million of debt, and perhaps pay themselves a dividend with some of the proceeds from the refinancing. The audacity of the owners to pocket money while chopping payroll should not come as a surprise to their fans. Two years ago SNY paid its owners $239 million in dividends. The Mets are also currently in default of baseball’s debt rule, which requires teams not to have debt in excess of 8 times operating income.

        The shifting of debt from the team to SNY is a no-brainer. The cable channel’s value is now about $2.5 billion based on 2012 estimated operating income (earnings before interest, taxes and depreciation) of $175 million, and SNY has increased in value the past few years while the value of the Mets, $719 million, fell 4% over the past year. The more valuable asset that is appreciating in value can borrow more at a more favorable interest rate than the less valuable asset that is falling in value.

        The real hope for Mets fans is that the team’s owners will not forget their long-suffering fans and also use some of the proceeds from the refinancing to boost payroll and put a better product on the field. If Wilpon and Katz do not boost their investment in the team, then MLB commissioner Bud Selig must tell Mets fans why he forced Frank McCourt to sell the Los Angeles Dodgers because the former owner was sucking cash out of the team for personal uses, while allowing the Mets owners to do the very same thing he accused McCourt of doing.


        I wonder if the Coupons are still planning on skimming another fat dividend for themselves while dropping payroll another $30 million? Details of the loan weren't released yet.

        Does one even have to ask?
        sigpic

        "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

        Comment


        • Make that a cool $700M.

          N.Y. Mets Owners Said to Obtain at Least $700 Million in Loans

          The owners of the New York Mets obtained at least $700 million in loans to refinance debt, according to a person with knowledge of the matter.

          The financing will be used to replace existing credit lines and provide additional funds to the parents of the Major League Baseball team, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the information wasn’t public.
          Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
            This was already reported as in the works:

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...s-fans-suffer/

            Mets Owners May Pay Themselves Big Dividend While Team's Fans Suffer


            Taking advantage of low interest rates and the escalating value of regional sports networks, the owners of the New York Mets are working with bankers to move debt from their baseball team to their cable network and perhaps pay themselves a hefty dividend in the process, according to the New York Times.

            The Mets have lost roughly $100 million over the past two seasons because of falling attendance and high debt payments. The team’s owners, Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz, leveraged the Mets and the cable network they own two-thirds of (Comcast and Time Warner Cable own the remainder), SportsNet New York, to the hilt. For years the two men relied on fake profits from Ponzi schemer Bernie Madoff to backstop their finances. But when Madoff was exposed as a fraud, the Mets lost their ATM.

            With revenues falling and no ATM, the team was forced to reduce their payroll by $50 million before this season. It showed on the diamond, as the Mets finished 74-88, 24 games behind the first place Washington Nationals. The Mets only drew 2.24 million fans at Citi Field this season, 17th among MLB’s 30 teams and over 100,000 less than they drew in 2011, despite lowering ticket prices significantly for many seats before the season began.

            Wilpon and Katz are looking to refinance the $450 million of debt on SNY to pay down down some of the baseball team’s roughly $330 million of debt, and perhaps pay themselves a dividend with some of the proceeds from the refinancing. The audacity of the owners to pocket money while chopping payroll should not come as a surprise to their fans. Two years ago SNY paid its owners $239 million in dividends. The Mets are also currently in default of baseball’s debt rule, which requires teams not to have debt in excess of 8 times operating income.

            The shifting of debt from the team to SNY is a no-brainer. The cable channel’s value is now about $2.5 billion based on 2012 estimated operating income (earnings before interest, taxes and depreciation) of $175 million, and SNY has increased in value the past few years while the value of the Mets, $719 million, fell 4% over the past year. The more valuable asset that is appreciating in value can borrow more at a more favorable interest rate than the less valuable asset that is falling in value.

            The real hope for Mets fans is that the team’s owners will not forget their long-suffering fans and also use some of the proceeds from the refinancing to boost payroll and put a better product on the field. If Wilpon and Katz do not boost their investment in the team, then MLB commissioner Bud Selig must tell Mets fans why he forced Frank McCourt to sell the Los Angeles Dodgers because the former owner was sucking cash out of the team for personal uses, while allowing the Mets owners to do the very same thing he accused McCourt of doing.


            I wonder if the Coupons are still planning on skimming another fat dividend for themselves while dropping payroll another $30 million? Details of the loan weren't released yet.

            Does one even have to ask?
            Without getting into the what ifs, is this deal good or bad for the Mets baseball team?

            Comment


            • I have to ask...

              Is there a point where a commissioner (I say a commish rather than THE commish, let's face it, Selig's as effective as a wet paper bag) might stop these crooks and force them to sell or abdicate the team?

              I mean, there has to be something in the MLB bylaws about intentionally running your team into the ground...

              And even if there's not and the Kansas City A's were allowed to be a sort of Yankees AAAA farm club for years...

              This IS a New York franchise, surely MLB might feel differently about such a money making locale and franchise being run aground?
              "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
                I have to ask...

                Is there a point where a commissioner (I say a commish rather than THE commish, let's face it, Selig's as effective as a wet paper bag) might stop these crooks and force them to sell or abdicate the team?

                I mean, there has to be something in the MLB bylaws about intentionally running your team into the ground...

                And even if there's not and the Kansas City A's were allowed to be a sort of Yankees AAAA farm club for years...

                This IS a New York franchise, surely MLB might feel differently about such a money making locale and franchise being run aground?
                It is very tough to tell someone who owns something how they must run it. Overpaying for what is only the "best available" talent each year could also be viewed as actions of bad ownership. It is quite obvious they are in full rebuild mode. Met fans must ask themselves if they can enjoy watching young players develop knowing most will not succeed but some may become stars. Thats the reality of this situation. I have grown tired of always having 3 or 4 washed up guys on a roster who whether they are trying or not can no longer earn there salaries. Those are the players who are booed all year by the same fans who demanded they should be signed so the Owners can prove they want to win! Most NY fans do not and will not be interested in a team that loses. If I am going to watch a team lose (which I will do this year), I would rather the team be filled with young talent that may win in the future then guys who are over the hill playing out there contracts. There was not enough free agent talent on the market this year to make the Mets a long term powerhouse. If the Harveys, Wheelers and the 2 prospects from the Dickey trade develop to there potential along with Davis, Wright and Tejada and Niese, the Mets will have the base of a good team. I hate to say it, but they would have been just as bad either way next year. And yes, there outfield is a joke.

                Comment


                • ^I just mean in terms of their constantly selling off pieces and (apparently) skimming funds...their overall poor and rather negligent performance--

                  Doesn't MLB have a duty to itself and its fans to be sure its franchises are operated with...well, if not with the utmost integrity, than at least a passable amount, more than what the Wilponzis have shown?
                  "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

                  Comment


                  • As for the team...it does at least have some bright spots...

                    Ike/Murphy/Tejada/Wright is an infield I'd be happy with, assuming Ike's woes are conquered...Tejada's decent and low-cost, Wright's Wright, and I think Murphy's earned his slot, he'll never have the best glove, but he's improved, and I think his bat makes up for it (granted he IS an ideal DH, so if an AL club with a good 2B wanted to deal for him, that might work as well, but otherwise, I'm OK with him.)

                    I don't even know at catcher...I guess we'll see if D'Arnaud lives up to the hype.

                    Santana looks to be all but finished, sadly, barring a comeback year, but hey, he had his years with us, and his moments...
                    No more Dickey...
                    Niese is a solid #3 pitcher...

                    And then what?

                    Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, Noah Syndergaard...it all rests on three young arms that, aside from Harvey, we've seen nothing of at the big-league level to give us hope.

                    If it turns out we traded Dickey for two lemons, these could be some long, painful years.
                    "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                      This was already reported as in the works:
                      http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...s-fans-suffer/

                      Mongoose, I will again write your proof this team is generating 450m in revenue Fredo can stuff in his pockets simply does not fly based on their actions.

                      Ozanian writing an article where he simply links to a New York Times article the day before does not make Forbes or Ozanian credible.

                      What matters is what the Times reported the day before Ozanian found something to parrot.
                      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/06/sp...ebt.html?_r=1&

                      And before Ozanian does another phony Forbes exclusive where he again parrots the Times, let me save everyone the trouble.
                      Gee, I just did what Forbes and Ozanian does.
                      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/sp...%2Findex.jsonp

                      Infusion of $160 Million Gives Mets a Chance to Spend, Perhaps on Talent
                      By RICHARD SANDOMIR
                      January 4, 2013
                      Last edited by WEB; 01-04-2013, 07:56 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
                        This IS a New York franchise
                        Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                        Most NY fans do not and will not be interested in a team that loses.
                        Comments like these always amuse me like every other markets fans are not exactly the same.

                        The problem is not Fredo's payroll, it's Fredo and Jeff-R-Us.
                        http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team

                        Used Car Bud's payroll with the keys to the vault, is only four million more than Fredo.
                        Last edited by WEB; 01-04-2013, 08:01 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WEB View Post
                          Comments like these always amuse me like every other markets fans are not exactly the same.

                          The problem is not Fredo's payroll, it's Fredo and Jeff-R-Us.
                          http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team

                          Used Car Bud's payroll with the keys to the vault, is only four million more than Fredo.
                          I'm not suggesting it from the fan angle, though...

                          I'm saying MLB wouldn't want one of the teams in their biggest money-making-markets (ie, NY, LA, CHI) losing money, fans, and credibility like that...

                          The fact is, it's good for baseball when teams like the Dodgers, Angels, Yankees, Mets, Cubs and White Sox are flying high and making money for the league.

                          (And to put it another way--people might not tune in to a World Series with the Tampa Bay Rays or Miami Marlins in it, but put the Mets or Yankees in there and suddenly the ratings shoot right up which, again, is good for the game and for MLB overall.)
                          "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by WEB View Post
                            Comments like these always amuse me like every other markets fans are not exactly the same.

                            The problem is not Fredo's payroll, it's Fredo and Jeff-R-Us.
                            http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team

                            Used Car Bud's payroll with the keys to the vault, is only four million more than Fredo.
                            "This IS a New York franchise, surely MLB might feel differently about such a money making locale and franchise being run aground?"


                            "Most NY fans do not and will not be interested in a team that loses. If I am going to watch a team lose (which I will do this year), I would rather the team be filled with young talent that may win in the future then guys who are over the hill playing out there contracts."

                            Neither statement is amusing if it is supported by additional comments, which both posts do. Two different points of view but loads of arguing points to prove both.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
                              I'm saying MLB wouldn't want one of the teams in their biggest money-making-markets (ie, NY, LA, CHI) losing money, fans, and credibility like that...
                              The fact is, it's good for baseball when teams like the Dodgers, Angels, Yankees, Mets, Cubs and White Sox are flying high and making money for the league.

                              (And to put it another way--people might not tune in to a World Series with the Tampa Bay Rays or Miami Marlins in it, but put the Mets or Yankees in there and suddenly the ratings shoot right up which, again, is good for the game and for MLB overall.)
                              Fact is Yankees-Mets was one of the lowest rated World-Series of all time.
                              http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...es_ratings_ap/

                              It's always media in the usual markets selling propaganda that it's good for x sport when their team is in for the good of the league. Reality is those media outlets are only interested in selling their own papers personal gain under editor's orders. Many local papers are glorified cheerleaders for the teams they cover.

                              None of them speak for MLB. TBS sold Ted Turners Braves as America's team for the good of Ted Turner.
                              Rupert Murdoch sells what's good for his wallet on Fox.
                              NBC now sells what Comcast tells them to sell.
                              Used car Bud sells what's good for his bank account.
                              So does Fredo.

                              The NY Times has a subscription booth at that joke inside Shea's parking lot to sell their pay wall publication.

                              The Yankees and Mets fold tomorrow MLB will be just fine thank you and like many New York citizens would not care one bit. Like in the many years both teams played before mostly thousands of empty seats, there is always another team making money for the league. Many are still laughing at the reality show gone bad empty Yankee mallpark playoffs last fall.

                              People did not show up to see the convicted felon Yankees for a good part of the 80's pre 1995 and prior to him from 66-73 and the glory days 50's Yankees were infamous for a million or so fans a year even when winning. People did now show up late 70's early 80's Mets despite ownership changes for Doubleday or Fredo and stayed away in the 90's as soon as the losing began again.

                              Funny how NCAA football and basketball do just fine come tournament time regardless who plays with no New York teams.
                              NFL could care less about New Jersey football teams calling themselves New York are for a league that is bigger than it's markets.

                              Bottom line Fredo's payroll is above the league avg, outside of a teams home market the fans who follow baseball most could care less who wins if it's not their team.
                              Last edited by WEB; 01-05-2013, 08:48 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by WEB View Post
                                Fact is Yankees-Mets was one of the lowest rated World-Series of all time.
                                http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...es_ratings_ap/

                                It's always media in the usual markets selling propaganda that it's good for x sport when their team is in for the good of the league. Reality is those media outlets are only interested in selling their own papers personal gain under editor's orders. Many local papers are glorified cheerleaders for the teams they cover.

                                None of them speak for MLB. TBS sold Ted Turners Braves as America's team for the good of Ted Turner.
                                Rupert Murdoch sells what's good for his wallet on Fox.
                                NBC now sells what Comcast tells them to sell.
                                Used car Bud sells what's good for his bank account.
                                So does Fredo.

                                The NY Times has a subscription booth at that joke inside Shea's parking lot to sell their pay wall publication.

                                The Yankees and Mets fold tomorrow MLB will be just fine thank you and like many New York citizens would not care one bit. Like in the many years both teams played before mostly thousands of empty seats, there is always another team making money for the league. Many are still laughing at the reality show gone bad empty Yankee mallpark playoffs last fall.

                                People did not show up to see the convicted felon Yankees for a good part of the 80's pre 1995 and prior to him from 66-73 and the glory days 50's Yankees were infamous for a million or so fans a year even when winning. People did now show up late 70's early 80's Mets despite ownership changes for Doubleday or Fredo and stayed away in the 90's as soon as the losing began again.

                                Funny how NCAA football and basketball do just fine come tournament time regardless who plays with no New York teams.
                                NFL could care less about New Jersey football teams calling themselves New York are for a league that is bigger than it's markets.

                                Bottom line Fredo's payroll is above the league avg, outside of a teams home market the fans who follow baseball most could care less who wins if it's not their team.
                                Well, I have to disagree--if the Yankees folded, even being a life-long Los Angelino (or close enough) I HAVE to imagine even New Yorkers who care nothing for baseball would care and probably try and save the team somehow...

                                I mean, I don't care about basketball, but if the Lakers were going to fold, I'd join the legions of Laker-fans (assuming they're not still home crying from the Clippers shaming them, lol) to try and save the team...

                                The Lakers (and I'd argue the Dodgers as well) are just as much a part of LA as the movie stars, Theater District, Downtown LA's bars, and smog.

                                Losing the Lakers would be LA losing a trademark, vital part of its city identity, and likewise...

                                Losing the Yankees would be like New York losing one of its landmarks (granted that's already happened partially with Old Yankee Stadium being leveled, but I digress.)

                                What's more, if there's one team that's the "Manchester United of MLB," that is, gets any sort of overseas attention at all whatsoever, tops on that list--the Yankees.

                                So I have to disagree--some franchises ARE more vital than others.

                                If the Royals, Rockies, Rangers or Rays folded, MLB might lose a little something, but not too much and could keep going just fine, no question.

                                If the Yankees, Red Sox, or Dodgers or Cubs folded, MLB would lose something irreplaceable both in terms of history and in terms of attendance and ratings.

                                As for the Mets/Yankees WS having low ratings...that also took place at a lower point for baseball (2000 wasn't exactly a time when it was on top.)

                                What's more, I maintain that, even just taking the Yankees and Red Sox, when either of those two play in a WS, the ratings ARE higher than if it's, say, the Royals and Rockies playing.

                                A good METS team would attract more attention than a good Rockies team...that's just how it is.
                                "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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