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  • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    Tyler Kepner-Mets May discover money solves nothing.

    An ironic title since he says the no. 1 teams in the 2 biggest markets, Yanks and Dodgers have the most victories in the 2010’s, yet it has not been spending alone that has made them successful.

    The irony is that they have zero World Series titles between them in that same decade. Successful yes, but sometimes a title is still elusive. The small market teams like Oakland and Tampa have success and no titles as well.

    Nothing is easy and maybe being naive I’ll take my chances on new ownership.
    Right, counting titles is not the right metric here, starved though Mets fans are for that...

    Let me put it this way - if the 2015 Mets, who came from below .500 after the ASB to win all of 90 games and then run to the World Series, actually gotten those three key hits or outs that eluded them and won the 2015 Championship, do you think for a moment the Wilpons would have enabled any different an off-season than they did after NOT winning the World Series?

    If anything they'd have had LESS urgency to "win now", having just won it all, is my feeling.

    And yet with what should have been MAXIMUM URGENCY to "win now", they brought back a team for 2016 that was markedly worse on paper than what ended 2015 - and that was including bringing back their biggest bat in Yoenis Cespedes only after nobody else would give him a multi-year deal (and neither did the Mets). They had been fully prepared to come back with the 2016 lineup, MINUS Cespedes.

    A lone title in 2015 would not really offset ownership philosophy like that.

    I would much rather have what the Dodgers and Yankees have built from 2010-2019, despite the lack of championships, simply because every. single. season, I can expect my team to be "on track for being contenders" even if it's a crapshoot to see if they end up the last one standing.

    Sustained Excellence is the goal. Not "hey, roll the 90-win dice enough times and eventually we'll win 90 again and then maybe this time win it all!" as a goal.
    «Telle est la vie des hommes. Quelques joies, très vite effacées par d’inoubliables chagrins. Il n'est pas nécessaire de le dire aux enfants...» (Marcel Pagnol)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

      There was a home-spun quality to the franchise that differentiated it from the Yankees. This derived from the prior NY, NL teams (especially the Dodgers) having more working class roots. Almost worse than the cheap, lousy teams was Fred's miserable stewardship of this legacy. He murdered the team's personality, and everything associated with it. As a result, I feel like I'm trying to explain what an elephant looks like to a blind man. Watch old video. See how much fun everybody's having. See how it seems relatively devoid of hucksterism. Compare it to now. The difference is radical.

      As far as actually watching a game is concerned, I guess the simplest way to put it is, the ballpark experience is pleasanter without constantly being barraged by ads. The main reason for any of the loud non-ad noise and music, is to make the ads less jarring. It's a form of conditioning. Even so, they crank the volume up for the ads.

      If you don't think a relative quiet that's more game-focused is preferable, than we'll have to agree to disagree.
      Here's the root of my head-scratching at your sentiments like this:

      You keep framing it as a "Mets of the past" versus "Wilpons Mets" thing, when as far as I can tell it's a "baseball of the past" versus "baseball of the present" thing.

      "The Wilpons killed that low-down homespun fan vibe with non-stop stadium noise as compared to the 1960s through 1980s!" -- Well from my perspective, I who only became an MLB fan in 1997, Mets games since I started going to them may indeed have a different "ballpark vibe" than they had just 5-10 years prior to that. I'll take your word for it.

      But, is that something the Evil Wilpons did out of the Evil of their Greedy Evil Hearts (bearing in mind that I've no love lost for the Wilpons either - in terms of how they run the entire organization)?

      I've also been to a lot of other ballparks in that time; within just the past ten years:

      Oriole Park at Camden Yards.
      Wrigley Field.
      Fenway Park.
      PNC Park.
      Nationals Park.
      Citizens Bank Park.
      Great American Ball Park.
      Busch Stadium II (III?) (The current Cardinals ballpark)

      As far as I can recall, all of them had sponsored between-inning entertainment (kiss cam, team trivia questions), rally sound effects over the PA system at high volume, etc., that I think you are complaining about. It's not like you can say, "Ah, whenever I go to a game on the road it's so much better than the Wilponage my home ballpark has been put through", not even with the two oldest parks in baseball.

      I would say Citi Field suffers in general from a surfeit of rotating and somewhat chintzy sponsorship (Arpielle Forklift billboards surrounding the center field scoreboard in a brand new ballpark back in 2009 was especially awful), but that is an "implementation detail", of execution not of kind.

      And with all that, from what I could see, in general fans had a great time.

      Cheaper concessions would be my #1 request to be more fan friendly - has it reached over $8 for a hot dog yet? A single hot dog?

      (ETA: What I mean by "chintzy": did the Wilpon Mets ever have a tie-in from Cash4Gold or did I just joke about is so much that I think it was real? - And I know they had a tie-in with Send In The Clowns, which I don't think was tied in with "this call to the bullpen is sponsored by..." but surely it SHOULD have been.)
      Last edited by robardin; 09-16-2020, 11:38 AM.
      «Telle est la vie des hommes. Quelques joies, très vite effacées par d’inoubliables chagrins. Il n'est pas nécessaire de le dire aux enfants...» (Marcel Pagnol)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robardin View Post

        Right, counting titles is not the right metric here, starved though Mets fans are for that...

        Let me put it this way - if the 2015 Mets, who came from below .500 after the ASB to win all of 90 games and then run to the World Series, actually gotten those three key hits or outs that eluded them and won the 2015 Championship, do you think for a moment the Wilpons would have enabled any different an off-season than they did after NOT winning the World Series?

        If anything they'd have had LESS urgency to "win now", having just won it all, is my feeling.

        And yet with what should have been MAXIMUM URGENCY to "win now", they brought back a team for 2016 that was markedly worse on paper than what ended 2015 - and that was including bringing back their biggest bat in Yoenis Cespedes only after nobody else would give him a multi-year deal (and neither did the Mets). They had been fully prepared to come back with the 2016 lineup, MINUS Cespedes.

        A lone title in 2015 would not really offset ownership philosophy like that.

        I would much rather have what the Dodgers and Yankees have built from 2010-2019, despite the lack of championships, simply because every. single. season, I can expect my team to be "on track for being contenders" even if it's a crapshoot to see if they end up the last one standing.

        Sustained Excellence is the goal. Not "hey, roll the 90-win dice enough times and eventually we'll win 90 again and then maybe this time win it all!" as a goal.
        Indeed. Kepner's article is that the Yanks and Dodgers spent on free agents but also have a good farm system and good management.. The Angels have spent a lot on free agents and it hasn't worked out (yet).
        I do want another World Series title. And never considered sustained excellence because I'm a Met fan. But I also believe the Mets have major league players as presently constituted from their own farm system. Conforto, Alonso, Rosario, Gimenez, Nimmo, Guillorme, McNeil, Smith, plus deGrom, Peterson (maybe) and Syndergaard next year, hopefully. They need management and Free Agents to supplement the roster. Not one free agent every couple of years if the price is right.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post

          Indeed. Kepner's article is that the Yanks and Dodgers spent on free agents but also have a good farm system and good management.. The Angels have spent a lot on free agents and it hasn't worked out (yet).
          I do want another World Series title. And never considered sustained excellence because I'm a Met fan. But I also believe the Mets have major league players as presently constituted from their own farm system. Conforto, Alonso, Rosario, Gimenez, Nimmo, Guillorme, McNeil, Smith, plus deGrom, Peterson (maybe) and Syndergaard next year, hopefully. They need management and Free Agents to supplement the roster. Not one free agent every couple of years if the price is right.
          We went through this during the Madoff years. I know we had great debates but I do think we all agrees that if run correctly, a team can be successful for a sustained period of time without always being the big spenders every offseason.

          I love to see homegrown talent blossom. I think that if we could be fortunate enough to choose how we win we could all agree that talented scouts, a great farm system that develops talent and a front office that knows who to sign, who to play and who to trade is the way to go. Over paying for free agents and outspending your competition into submission would not be optimal but if that is the only way a franchise could win we would take it.

          I hope Cohen (which I have no reason to think he will not) will build this team to be run 1st class. If he can achieve that objective, there may be a lot less to complain about on these Met threads! What will some do with all their free time, LOL!! Hopefully enjoy our favorite team once again.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by robardin View Post

            Here's the root of my head-scratching at your sentiments like this:

            You keep framing it as a "Mets of the past" versus "Wilpons Mets" thing, when as far as I can tell it's a "baseball of the past" versus "baseball of the present" thing.

            "The Wilpons killed that low-down homespun fan vibe with non-stop stadium noise as compared to the 1960s through 1980s!" -- Well from my perspective, I who only became an MLB fan in 1997, Mets games since I started going to them may indeed have a different "ballpark vibe" than they had just 5-10 years prior to that. I'll take your word for it.

            But, is that something the Evil Wilpons did out of the Evil of their Greedy Evil Hearts (bearing in mind that I've no love lost for the Wilpons either - in terms of how they run the entire organization)?

            I've also been to a lot of other ballparks in that time; within just the past ten years:

            Oriole Park at Camden Yards.
            Wrigley Field.
            Fenway Park.
            PNC Park.
            Nationals Park.
            Citizens Bank Park.
            Great American Ball Park.
            Busch Stadium II (III?) (The current Cardinals ballpark)

            As far as I can recall, all of them had sponsored between-inning entertainment (kiss cam, team trivia questions), rally sound effects over the PA system at high volume, etc., that I think you are complaining about. It's not like you can say, "Ah, whenever I go to a game on the road it's so much better than the Wilponage my home ballpark has been put through", not even with the two oldest parks in baseball.

            I would say Citi Field suffers in general from a surfeit of rotating and somewhat chintzy sponsorship (Arpielle Forklift billboards surrounding the center field scoreboard in a brand new ballpark back in 2009 was especially awful), but that is an "implementation detail", of execution not of kind.

            And with all that, from what I could see, in general fans had a great time.

            Cheaper concessions would be my #1 request to be more fan friendly - has it reached over $8 for a hot dog yet? A single hot dog?

            (ETA: What I mean by "chintzy": did the Wilpon Mets ever have a tie-in from Cash4Gold or did I just joke about is so much that I think it was real? - And I know they had a tie-in with Send In The Clowns, which I don't think was tied in with "this call to the bullpen is sponsored by..." but surely it SHOULD have been.)
            There's truth in what you say. It's not just MLB, or even American sports. Fans of English Football find the experience has become sterile and commercial.

            Where Fred differs is probably degree. The team has been stripped of its character and severed from its past. I can't speak to other ballpark experiences, because I can't compare past to present elsewhere. The only other ballpark I've visited periodically over many years has been in the Bronx. The contrast is stark.

            Say what you will about the Yankees' persona, but their stadium celebrates their history. The hucksterism isn't nearly as aggressive. In Queens, Fred focused on the "fan experience" because it was cheaper than building a competitive team. Fred was oblivious to the many details and traditions that resonated with Mets fans.

            At this point, what exactly is the Mets' persona - besides ineptitude and malfeasance?

            I wish you had experienced what being a fan was like, from the 60s through mid-80s. As Blue387's signature says, "The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball". Mets fans never needed to be told when to cheer. They had their own chants, and were among the loudest in the game. Fred grafted a generic stadium experience onto something organic and superior - something he never understood.

            I've already spent more time on this post than I have to spare right now. If I ever get access to a time machine, I'll take you to Shea, circa 1984. Maybe then you'll understand...


            "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

            Comment


            • Sandy may be back in the mix in the front office. My #1 expectation of new ownership is to hire professionals and let them do their jobs. Like him or not, Alderson has vast experience building teams. Now get Omar involved and working together at what they both do best and you may have an All-Star front office.

              https://sny.tv/articles/source-sandy...wnership-group

              Comment


              • Had Alex Rodriguez gotten the team, he told people he was strongly considering and seemed likely to keep Jeff Wilpon in a significant senior role. Now, assuming Cohen gets the team, that type of role may well go to Sandy Alderson.

                https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status...34304748285953
                The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                  Sandy may be back in the mix in the front office. My #1 expectation of new ownership is to hire professionals and let them do their jobs. Like him or not, Alderson has vast experience building teams. Now get Omar involved and working together at what they both do best and you may have an All-Star front office.

                  https://sny.tv/articles/source-sandy...wnership-group
                  Omar is an All Star talent evaluator - excellent. GM? Not so much

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
                    Had Alex Rodriguez gotten the team, he told people he was strongly considering and seemed likely to keep Jeff Wilpon in a significant senior role. Now, assuming Cohen gets the team, that type of role may well go to Sandy Alderson.

                    https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status...34304748285953
                    Well then lets be grateful that Arod didnt get the team. That would have taken the wind out of the sails of the sale in a blink

                    Comment


                    • Source: Mets to ‘clean house’ when Steve Cohen arrives, Sandy Alderson would return as advisor
                      https://www.amny.com/sports/source-m...rn-as-advisor/

                      The approaching reign of Steve Cohen as majority owner of the New York Mets has the baseball world expecting major shakeups within the organization’s ranks.

                      And it very well looks like they may be right.

                      A source with knowledge of the situation told amNewYork Metro on Monday morning that “any way you slice it, [Cohen] is going to clean house.”

                      Such a philosophy by Cohen would be headlined by the removal of general manager Brodie Van Wagenen, who has failed to put the necessary pieces together over the past two years to make the Mets a legitimate contender.
                      The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

                        Omar is an All Star talent evaluator - excellent. GM? Not so much
                        Exactly, let Omar do what he does best. Develop talent in Latin America. As a GM, definitely not.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
                          Source: Mets to ‘clean house’ when Steve Cohen arrives, Sandy Alderson would return as advisor
                          https://www.amny.com/sports/source-m...rn-as-advisor/
                          I don't think Met fans will have a problem with a clean sweep. There is no one at the management level, from coaches to high level front office, that would upset me if they were gone.

                          Comment


                          • Question, will the Wilpon's have any control over the Brooklyn Cyclones? I know they were involved with them and some farm teams have a separate ownership than the team they are affiliated with.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post

                              I don't think Met fans will have a problem with a clean sweep. There is no one at the management level, from coaches to high level front office, that would upset me if they were gone.
                              I would. Businesses, of any kind, have issues with clean sweeps.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post

                                I would. Businesses, of any kind, have issues with clean sweeps.
                                True, but BVW has to go. If Cohen wants to run it the right way he lets the new GM pick his own staff. That can mean a cleaning of the house.

                                Which is exactly why that GM selection has to be on point 100%.

                                Comment

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