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The Mets Ownership / Management Thread

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  • #16
    I think the Mets should be sellers at the trade deadline. Look, I love the Mets and have rooted for them since 1967 but I don't think it really matters that much if Delgado or Reyes come back. They didn't win with the this whole crew before and they won't win now. I wish I was wrong but I can "feel" it. Eventhough it has been 23 years since they last won a WS, I would prefer that they restock with younger talent and try to create a new "window" for winning. I think they had their shot with this crew in 2006 and missed it. As hard as it is to go through I think they need to do it again, and to teach the new guys how to play fundamental baseball (catch, throw, run bases, hit cut off men, hit and run, read signs etc).

    Who to sell? Everyone is eligible if the deal is a good one except: Wright, Santana and K-Rod.

    The arguments about ownership are valid and will continue to confound us fans into the forseeable future, but also Omar has to get bunch of the blame particularly since; 1) the Mets haven't built the latin american pipeline that signing Pedro and Beltran was supposed to create and; 2) because Omar clearly said it was his goal to rebuild the farm system to perpetuate winning, (still not very deep and should be better despite the trades that have sapped talent for guys like Santana...he has made a few good trades but also gave away talent like Lindstrom, Milledge and Bell for about nothing) and; 3) to get the Mets more atheletic. Other than Wright, Reyes and Beltran the Mets aren't all that athletic.

    Omar has got to stop overpaying for marginal guys, while he seeks "lightning in a bottle." That blows too much payroll.

    Omar has to convice ownership to spend more on scouting and signing young latin players, asian players and to be willing to go above slotting with draftees in the States. It's his responsibility to make the business case for ownership. Nothing makes money more than winning. especially in NYC. He has to show them a real plan and the expected return on investment and be accountable if the plan doesn't work. I can't honestly say I know what the plan is these days other than wait until the guys get back...well I hope they are right and that I am wrong but I wouldn't bet on it.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by LostMet View Post
      ...he has made a few good trades but also gave away talent like Lindstrom, Milledge and Bell for about nothing)
      The trades of Lindstrom and Bell turned out to be mistakes but...
      1. If these are the worst mistakes you can come up with, they aren't much to whine about.
      2. Bell had an ERA over 5.00 in two consecutive seasons and about 64 games. He stunk in NY, and the Mets gave him ample opportunity to secure a place on the roster. He had very little value at the time of the deal.
      3. The Mets received Church and Schneider for an enigmatic, inconsistent, prospect with few baseball instincts.


      Originally posted by LostMet View Post
      Omar has got to stop overpaying for marginal guys, while he seeks "lightning in a bottle." That blows too much payroll.
      Who is he overpaying except for Oliver Perez at the moment?

      Originally posted by LostMet View Post
      Omar has to convice ownership to spend more on scouting and signing young latin players, asian players and to be willing to go above slotting with draftees in the States.
      I would like the Mets to sign higher profile amateur free agents in other countries. They do sign players from all over - even the Netherlands and Germany - but generally avoid the high-priced bonus babies.

      I support slotting. When teams go above slotting, the best available players often fall to teams willing to pay over slot. The draft is supposed to help restore competitive balance. Better to allow teams to trade draft picks, IMO.

      Comment


      • #18
        Who is he overpaying except for Oliver Perez at the moment?
        Castillo for one.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
          Castillo for one.
          I will mostly agree. The term of the contract is too long, but $6 million is chump change and it isn't entirely inappropriate for a ten-year veteran of some merit. It isn't $13 million/season.

          So....that's two players. I think we could find at least two on most every team. And I wouldn't go overboard criticizing Minaya for something that befalls every GM - except for the markets where the GMs have almost no money to spend.

          Comment


          • #20
            The problem with the Castillo contract is it prevented the Mets from signing Orlando Hudson, who I'd rather have than Castillo.

            Comment


            • #21
              You should never bank on a player hitting free agency.
              "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

              "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

              "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

              Comment


              • #22
                I suppose you're right. But it is certainly a consideration. And there were other considerations that did not favor giving Castillo that kind of contract.

                Comment


                • #23
                  There's a chance the Mets could get Hudson. Castillo's contract will be more attractive if he keeps producing. If the Mets agreed to pay half, you might get a team willing to pick him up. Of course it will depend on Hudson remaining in LA or not. He said in an article recently that he wanted to be a Met but loves LA now. Though I do believe he will become a free agent as it at least increases the chances of the Dodgers overpaying for him (as Coletti does for just about every FA).
                  "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                  "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                  "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
                    I suppose you're right. But it is certainly a consideration. And there were other considerations that did not favor giving Castillo that kind of contract.
                    It is an after the fact consideration. Omar had two choices that I am aware coming into the 2008 season, David Eckstein or Castillo. The Mets met with Eckstein first, but he wanted a 4-year $30+ million deal, and was reluctant to move to 2B, so Minaya turned to Castillo.

                    I agree with others that 4-years sounded nuts from the get-go. I would have thought 2 or 3 years + a team option was more sensible.

                    Regardless, Omar needed a 2Bman. Ge chose to sign one that did not require the loss of draft picks or talent in a trade, and as someone noted, you cannot project who will or will not be a free agent and available down the road.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Not a second guess

                      Speaking of overplaying for players, Delgado should have been let go at the end of last year. We got all we could out of the guy. It was time to cut bait. What was the option, 12 mil? Maybe not too much $ but it certainly had an impact on what we spent this year.

                      Maybe that $12 mil gets us Orlando Hudson and we never have to see Castillo's shaky knees (and glove) again. Minaya has made moves both good and bad but his biggest problem is not predicting decline in performance.

                      2006 we get lucky with Valentin and we somehow think he'll repeat in 07.
                      07 we get Alou. He gets hurt. And we think he'll come around in 08.
                      06 with El Duque. Gets hurt, we depend on him for 07 and 08.
                      (Quick interruption - Murphy just made a sick play at 1st. This guy should play everyday)
                      Which brings me to Tatis. C'mon. Who didn't see the 09 dropoff coming?
                      07, 08, Pedro.

                      We've gone to bat for the last 3 years with no 2b, no corner OFs, and no C (be it a hitter or good defensive catcher). I'm not good in math but even I can tell that's half a lineup. When you have that many question marks, it's no surprise that things sometimes don't work out.

                      And I didn't even get into the starters yet...

                      What we need is a real baseball guy. Not a Bill James, not a Billy Beane, but a Branch Rickey or Frank Cashen. We need someone who can build a team, not collect a bunch of talent and hope it'll mesh. It hasn't here.

                      It's becoming more and more apparent that Minaya is not that guy. And we know for damn sure it ain't Bernazard.

                      So what do you do? Keep your fingers crossed. Stay home and watch (and pray) for the best. Hope this organization gets it's head out of it's ass. Go to Citi for the discounted games only and root for your fantasy team like every other baseball fan whose team sucks.
                      Sign Cespedes & Murphy

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bklyn'55 View Post
                        Speaking of overplaying for players, Delgado should have been let go at the end of last year. We got all we could out of the guy. It was time to cut bait. What was the option, 12 mil? Maybe not too much $ but it certainly had an impact on what we spent this year.

                        Maybe that $12 mil gets us Orlando Hudson and we never have to see Castillo's shaky knees (and glove) again. Minaya has made moves both good and bad but his biggest problem is not predicting decline in performance.

                        2006 we get lucky with Valentin and we somehow think he'll repeat in 07.
                        07 we get Alou. He gets hurt. And we think he'll come around in 08.
                        06 with El Duque. Gets hurt, we depend on him for 07 and 08.
                        (Quick interruption - Murphy just made a sick play at 1st. This guy should play everyday)
                        Which brings me to Tatis. C'mon. Who didn't see the 09 dropoff coming?
                        07, 08, Pedro.

                        We've gone to bat for the last 3 years with no 2b, no corner OFs, and no C (be it a hitter or good defensive catcher). I'm not good in math but even I can tell that's half a lineup. When you have that many question marks, it's no surprise that things sometimes don't work out.

                        And I didn't even get into the starters yet...

                        What we need is a real baseball guy. Not a Bill James, not a Billy Beane, but a Branch Rickey or Frank Cashen. We need someone who can build a team, not collect a bunch of talent and hope it'll mesh. It hasn't here.

                        It's becoming more and more apparent that Minaya is not that guy. And we know for damn sure it ain't Bernazard.

                        So what do you do? Keep your fingers crossed. Stay home and watch (and pray) for the best. Hope this organization gets it's head out of it's ass. Go to Citi for the discounted games only and root for your fantasy team like every other baseball fan whose team sucks.
                        Not to be argumentative, but the Delgado signing was a good one. No one could foresee his major injury. He was a proven producer. I think it wasa good signing. No need to break a working machine.

                        Castillo's glove is just fine. I don't think he's overpaid.

                        I most definitely agree with your comment regarding Tatis. I saw the dropoff coming a million miles away. The Mets should have known last season was a welcome aberration.

                        So, no 2B? I disagree. And Schneider is as good a defensive catcher as can be had in MLB. We weren't gonna keep Lo Duca, and Milledge has proven to be not much more than a clubhouse disturbance.

                        The other thing with which I agree is that Omar needs to begin concentrating on taking his cue from the Mahatma. He should right now begin building a team for the future in the farms, rather than trading prospects for quick fixes.

                        '09 may or may not be a lost cause -- that decision is still in the hands of the baseball gods -- but we need to get moving on the minor leagues.

                        My
                        "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


                        Put it in the books.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                          The Mets are fielding a lousy team.

                          The Mets have fielded mostly lousy teams for 20 years now.

                          Even when they’re good on paper, they’re lousy on a diamond. This can’t be blamed on Minaya or Phillips or any of the GMs that have put these teams together. No matter who's GM, the result always seems the same. It’s the result of an organizational philosophy. Ever since the great teams of the 1980s were torn apart, it’s been the same formula over and over: a tired cast of generally indifferent, fireless mercenaries with what little homegrown talent that sprouts out a wasteland of a farm system usually winding up elsewhere.

                          When the mercenaries fail to live up to expectations, or go down with injuries, there’s never anything to fall back on. When the mercenaries do well, they generally fail to gel as a team and spit the bit when it counts. The failure to run out batted balls and frequent botching of routine plays often doesn’t make the box scores, but it almost seems like a Mets tradition at this point - we can all name the various offenders from the past two decades.

                          I can no longer blame the parade of different GMs, because the problem has proven to be endemic over the last 20 years.

                          I consider it the fault of an ownership that seems to despise colorful, scrappy gamers and loves “safe” colorless types that don’t play with intensity. I consider it the fault of an ownership that will sign a few big names to fill the seats, but won’t pony up a few million extra for guys like Abreu and Hudson to actually win when the roster is obviously full of holes. I consider it the fault of an ownership that seems to worry more about the menus in their exclusive restaurants than depth charts.

                          Not only do the teams reflect the dismal corporate philosophy of the owners, but I find the ongoing efforts to shed the team persona that won me as a fan in the first place and gentrify the team's image to be distasteful.

                          Meanwhile, prices have been raised so high that none of the Subway Series games have sold out and most of the better seats can be found for below their obscene face value on Stub Hub. I can’t really say the franchise has been a source of much joy of late.

                          I almost find myself wishing for things to finally bottom out so that Fred and Jeff will just sell the team. I don’t see much hope of significant change until then.

                          Thoughts?
                          You nailed it with this post.
                          I generally always avoid the Wilpon bashing, particularly when they're called cheap but the Wilpon era aspects you bring up are right on.
                          I don't want the team to bottom out but I'll admit I would rather watch and root for home grown kids enduring growing pains than the collection of mostly jizz-less imported 'proven talents' we have endured on the roster year after year for almost 20 seasons now.

                          Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                          I didn't bother reading the rest of your post since it's just your tired complaitns about ownership.
                          Golly gee ! Thank you for this post !
                          We just can't get enough of your joyless pontificating, criticisms and unknowledgable, arrogant opinions.
                          At least you're consistant.
                          Way to go ! Keep up the good work !

                          Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                          You shouldn't respond to things you haven't read - you'll wind up criticizing something you don't know about. You're then liable to come off looking ill-informed.
                          He is exibit A of what drives people away from the Mets Forum at BB-F.

                          Originally posted by StillShea View Post
                          I'm about a season and a half away from refusing to support this team in any way, shape or form until there's a change in ownership.
                          I'm tempted to say "don't do it !" but I don't think you will. I understand how you feel as I've felt the same way scores of times over the last 2 decades. There's a fine line between love and hate but the one constant is passion. We'll never leave them. It's like a codependent relationship. We may stay away for a week or two ... but then we make that booty call and it's like we never left.

                          As for the Wilpons selling, it will never happen. Never. Their ownership is bigger than the Mets now; they're television moguls and our Mets are the centerpiece of their programing.

                          Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                          ... there isn't the mental fortitude to stick with a players growing pains if he isn't Reyes or Wright straight out of the box.
                          So correct and so unfortunate.

                          Just look at the 'win now' set screaming for Murphy to be dumped ... just like many had NO patience with Reyes in the begining btw. (I was guilty of this myself last year with Pelfry, but in my defence, that is the only time I've ever acted that way.)

                          Met fans have changed over the years. It started in the '80's with, imo, the booing of Sisk. The fan base became full blown a-holes with the Shea booing of Carter and Hernandez at the end of their careers, when they were old and broken down.

                          As much as I would love to see, and would welcome, a rebuilding era with homegrown kids busting their butts and giving me a reason to cheer even if the W-L record stinks, I can't believe that will EVER happen in Queens again. The modern, unknowledgable, WFAN listening Met 'fans' would never accept it.

                          Originally posted by elancaster View Post
                          .

                          On the other hand, the Cyclones are doing good so far, not that any of them are MLB prospects. At least their tickets are cheaper than CitiField's and the games are a ton of fun.
                          Ditto that for the LI Ducks !
                          High level of play, players hustling because they are trying to prove something, free parking, Gary Carter managing and no big deal if they lose because you're just there to enjoy a baseball game.
                          Last edited by whoisonit; 07-09-2009, 09:37 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Just look at the 'win now' set screaming for Murphy to be dumped ... Met fans have changed over the years. It started in the '80's with, imo, the booing of Sisk. The
                            Sisk. There is a blast from the past. He had richly earned the nickname "The Arsonist." Murphy should be dumped because he is a liability in the field and should be a DH if he ever finds his stroke again. There is just no place to hide him in the field. He is, without a doubt, one of the worst fielders I have ever seen take the field for the Mets.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by whoisonit View Post
                              You nailed it with this post.
                              Thanks. I had the displeasure of watching it all unfold.

                              Originally posted by whoisonit View Post
                              As for the Wilpons selling, it will never happen. Never. Their ownership is bigger than the Mets now; they're television moguls and our Mets are the centerpiece of their programing.
                              Yeah, it's a vampire/victim relationship they've developed with the team, but look:

                              The Mets are awful - they're going to have to rebuild. It's going to be a good 5 years before they're able to field anything like a winner again. The only caveat here is the current screwy playoff system and their weak division, but I see a long stretch of bad teams and lower T.V. and ballpark revenue.

                              I can see the corporate "fans" deserting this team like rats from a sinking ship after this season plays out. Ordinary fan attendance is capped out at the 15,500 capacity of Promenade. There'll be fewer people left to shop at the mall - this will reduce revenue, too.

                              With the possibility that congress will bar them from the TARP money and with their losses from Madoff, it might become difficult to keep up the payments on "Citi Field".

                              One can always hope.

                              Originally posted by whoisonit View Post
                              fans have changed over the years. It started in the '80's with, imo, the booing of Sisk. The fan base became full blown a-holes with the Shea booing of Carter and Hernandez at the end of their careers, when they were old and broken down.

                              As much as I would love to see, and would welcome, a rebuilding era with homegrown kids busting their butts and giving me a reason to cheer even if the W-L record stinks, I can't believe that will EVER happen in Queens again. The modern, unknowledgable, WFAN listening Met 'fans' would never accept it.
                              I think it started with the booing of Gardenhire the year before Sisk melted down. You're right, though, it was the influx of frontrunners who appeared when the Mets got good again around 84/85.


                              "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                                You're right, though, it was the influx of frontrunners who appeared when the Mets got good again around 84/85.
                                I'm not trying to be funny or rip Yankee fans should any be reading, but didn't they all the front runners switch over to the Yankees by the mid 90s? I think its more a sign of the times or a function of the change in media coverage. I forgot all about Gardenhire. Wasn't he platooning with Backman and wasn't there some young SS at that same 82/83 time that didn't quite pan out?

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