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  • #16
    Francoeur is what he is, a hacker. His modest hot streak is to be enjoyed, but do not expect it to last. The 17 rbi's is nice, if fluky, but the 5 runs scored is more telling.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
      Francoeur is what he is, a hacker. His modest hot streak is to be enjoyed, but do not expect it to last. The 17 rbi's is nice, if fluky, but the 5 runs scored is more telling.
      Francoeur has 17 RBIs in 16 games, with a .306 average.

      The 5 runs scored tells me he is followed by a parade of .240 hitters.
      Let's Go Mets!
      New York Mets fan since 1962

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Let's Go Mets! View Post
        Francoeur has 17 RBIs in 16 games, with a .306 average.

        The 5 runs scored tells me he is followed by a parade of .240 hitters.
        It also tells me that he has a .324 OBP thanks to his 1 walk. The RBI are no doubt helped by the opportunities provided by Castillo leading the NL in BA in July and Wright's .358 OBP.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
          It also tells me that he has a .324 OBP thanks to his 1 walk. The RBI are no doubt helped by the opportunities provided by Castillo leading the NL in BA in July and Wright's .358 OBP.
          With all things being the same, put Francouer on the Yankees, and I'd bet he'd have more than 5 runs scored.
          Let's Go Mets!
          New York Mets fan since 1962

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          • #20
            Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
            It also tells me that he has a .324 OBP thanks to his 1 walk. The RBI are no doubt helped by the opportunities provided by Castillo leading the NL in BA in July and Wright's .358 OBP.
            Also.....kudos to Mr. Castillo & Mr. Wright for doing their jobs well in the month of July.

            They got on base, and Mr. Francouer also did his job by driving them home (at a pace which would produce a 172 RBI season).

            I agree, however, he could be more disciplined at the plate and draw more walks.
            Let's Go Mets!
            New York Mets fan since 1962

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            • #21
              There are SOME good hitters with only a little plate discipline

              George Sisler
              Alfonso Soriano
              Dustin Pedroia
              Ivan Rodriguez

              But there are only a few people who can manage this.

              Jeff Francoeur also has LESS discipline than these guys.

              He's a bad hitter.
              Originally posted by Cougar
              "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

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              • #22
                Jeff Francoeour is a bad baseball player.....You are not a valuable offensive player when you play the outfield and cant put up a .320 OBP or .750 OPS. Sorry but stats dont lie.

                And RBI is a TERRIBLE way to judge a player. They are TEAM dependant.
                "all the mets road wins against the dodgers this year have occured at Dodger Stadium"---Ralph Kiner

                "Blind people came to the park just to listen to him pitch"---Reggie Jackson, talking about Tom Seaver

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                  But a base hit with no one on doesn't drive in runs. Therefore Francoeur isn't earning his paycheck according to you.



                  Yeah, because Francoeur drives in a run every time he comes to bat....



                  What makes a guy an "RBI guy"?



                  At least you're admitting you're closed-minded.



                  You're making it sound like a guy who walks is passing the buck to the guy behind him when that couldn't be further from the truth. Guys who walk can recognize balls and strikes and that is a huge part of hitting. You cannot be a good hitter if you don't recognize balls from strikes. You're not always going to get a pitch to hit every at-bat and you're not going to get pitched to very at bat.

                  There's a reason why your line of thinking went extinct in baseball.
                  You kids are so spoiled because you grew up in the age of steroids where everyone in the lineup was expected to get on base every time.

                  To me, 100 RBI's is still 100 RBI's anyway you slice it. I would rather my cleanup hitter knock in 100 runs with a .300 OBP than have him knock in 75 with a .400 OBP.

                  Remember now, this is the NATIONAL LEAGUE not the AL, we don't have stacked lineups. Walks don't mean as much the further you go down the lineup.

                  Also OBP and OPS doesn't tell you sh*t!!! Big whoop so you walk or hit a triple when you're team is trailing by 5 runs in the 8th inning. And whenever I speak to one of these OPS lovers, they always discount clutch stats. Why is that? The OPS lover puts more stock in a guy who has a zillion OPS or whatever is a good OPS number over someone who bats .300 with RISP and 2 outs or late and close situations. All you OPS guys are a broken record.

                  Once again, good pitching, good defense, and timely hitting is what consistently wins you baseball games. OPS does not. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by m8644 View Post
                    Jeff Francoeour is a bad baseball player.....You are not a valuable offensive player when you play the outfield and cant put up a .320 OBP or .750 OPS. Sorry but stats dont lie.

                    And RBI is a TERRIBLE way to judge a player. They are TEAM dependant.
                    So you'd rather Francoeur walk and not try to knock in the run so he can leave it up to the next hitter who is most likely weaker? Isn't that being team dependent too?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by majorleads View Post

                      To me, 100 RBI's is still 100 RBI's anyway you slice it. I would rather my cleanup hitter knock in 100 runs with a .300 OBP than have him knock in 75 with a .400 OBP.

                      So by your logic, Tony Batista had a better year than Barry Bonds in 2004.

                      http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...atisto01.shtml

                      http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ondsba01.shtml

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by majorleads View Post
                        You kids are so spoiled because you grew up in the age of steroids where everyone in the lineup was expected to get on base every time.
                        That's not my point at all.

                        To me, 100 RBI's is still 100 RBI's anyway you slice it. I would rather my cleanup hitter knock in 100 runs with a .300 OBP than have him knock in 75 with a .400 OBP.
                        Is it always about the total RBIs? What if the guy with a 400 OBP drove in 90% of the runs that were on base when he came to bat while the .300 OBP guy only drove in 75% of the runs that were on base for him? Is the guy with only 75 RBIs inferior to the guy with 100 RBIs even though the former drove in a higher percentage of runs? RBIs are the most useless statistic because of this. It depends so much on the other players that it tells ZERO, absolutely nothing, about the individual player other than they played a lot to get those RBIs.

                        Also, a guy with a 300 OBP has no business hitting 4th in a lineup.

                        Remember now, this is the NATIONAL LEAGUE not the AL, we don't have stacked lineups. Walks don't mean as much the further you go down the lineup.
                        Walks mean just as much. Yes, the AL has the DH but few, if any, AL teams have a lineup 9 deep.

                        Also OBP and OPS doesn't tell you sh*t!!! Big whoop so you walk or hit a triple when you're team is trailing by 5 runs in the 8th inning.
                        So what do you want them to do then when they're down 5 runs? Give up?

                        And whenever I speak to one of these OPS lovers, they always discount clutch stats. Why is that? The OPS lover puts more stock in a guy who has a zillion OPS or whatever is a good OPS number over someone who bats .300 with RISP and 2 outs or late and close situations.
                        There is no pattern to clutch statistics. A hitter can be a great clutch hitter one year and a lousy one the next. Look at A-Rod in 2007. The guys who are real clutch hitters are the ones who hit inline with their career totals in those clutch situations.

                        All you OPS guys are a broken record.
                        OPS-haters like yourself are no different.

                        Once again, good pitching, good defense, and timely hitting is what consistently wins you baseball games. OPS does not. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
                        Good hitters have good OPS and you're going to win more games when you have more good hitters in the lineup. It's not reinventing the formula to win games, it's a tool to measure a player's individual, offensive production.
                        Last edited by NYMets523; 08-02-2009, 11:05 AM.
                        "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                        "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                        "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

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                        • #27
                          I wouldn't say he is impatient. Saying that he hacks at anything the pitcher releases would be more accurate.

                          He won't learn real patience. Of course you could do some artificial things, which are off course no real plate discipline.
                          Tell him to mandatory take the first pitch(unless it's dead red in the middle). This should at least work for a few weeks because no pitcher with a brain will throw him a first pitch strike. Just throw it reasonably close to the zone and he will hack at it.

                          With that approach he would get at least somewhat deeper in the count and challenge the picher a little bit more to throw strikes, but of course this is no real plate discipline but rather a little league approach and pitchers will adapt to this.

                          Still a better approach than his current
                          I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dominik View Post
                            I wouldn't say he is impatient. Saying that he hacks at anything the pitcher releases would be more accurate.

                            He won't learn real patience. Of course you could do some artificial things, which are off course no real plate discipline.
                            Tell him to mandatory take the first pitch(unless it's dead red in the middle). This should at least work for a few weeks because no pitcher with a brain will throw him a first pitch strike. Just throw it reasonably close to the zone and he will hack at it.

                            With that approach he would get at least somewhat deeper in the count and challenge the picher a little bit more to throw strikes, but of course this is no real plate discipline but rather a little league approach and pitchers will adapt to this.

                            Still a better approach than his current
                            That is a good plan. He'll be useful this year and maybe then we could trade him for magic beans/nothing.
                            Originally posted by Cougar
                            "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by majorleads View Post
                              So you'd rather Francoeur walk and not try to knock in the run so he can leave it up to the next hitter who is most likely weaker? Isn't that being team dependent too?
                              Id rather him swing at good pitches.....instead of swinging at the crap he does swing at.... trying to put himself into good hitters counts instead of being down 1-2 or 0-1 or 0-2.....in which any hitter's batting average and chance of getting on base suffers DRAMATICALLY.

                              But its not like there's a correlation between OBP and winning baseball......not at all.
                              "all the mets road wins against the dodgers this year have occured at Dodger Stadium"---Ralph Kiner

                              "Blind people came to the park just to listen to him pitch"---Reggie Jackson, talking about Tom Seaver

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