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Jeff Francouer Impatient?

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  • m8644
    replied
    Originally posted by majorleads View Post
    So you'd rather Francoeur walk and not try to knock in the run so he can leave it up to the next hitter who is most likely weaker? Isn't that being team dependent too?
    Id rather him swing at good pitches.....instead of swinging at the crap he does swing at.... trying to put himself into good hitters counts instead of being down 1-2 or 0-1 or 0-2.....in which any hitter's batting average and chance of getting on base suffers DRAMATICALLY.

    But its not like there's a correlation between OBP and winning baseball......not at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • nerfan
    replied
    Originally posted by dominik View Post
    I wouldn't say he is impatient. Saying that he hacks at anything the pitcher releases would be more accurate.

    He won't learn real patience. Of course you could do some artificial things, which are off course no real plate discipline.
    Tell him to mandatory take the first pitch(unless it's dead red in the middle). This should at least work for a few weeks because no pitcher with a brain will throw him a first pitch strike. Just throw it reasonably close to the zone and he will hack at it.

    With that approach he would get at least somewhat deeper in the count and challenge the picher a little bit more to throw strikes, but of course this is no real plate discipline but rather a little league approach and pitchers will adapt to this.

    Still a better approach than his current
    That is a good plan. He'll be useful this year and maybe then we could trade him for magic beans/nothing.

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    I wouldn't say he is impatient. Saying that he hacks at anything the pitcher releases would be more accurate.

    He won't learn real patience. Of course you could do some artificial things, which are off course no real plate discipline.
    Tell him to mandatory take the first pitch(unless it's dead red in the middle). This should at least work for a few weeks because no pitcher with a brain will throw him a first pitch strike. Just throw it reasonably close to the zone and he will hack at it.

    With that approach he would get at least somewhat deeper in the count and challenge the picher a little bit more to throw strikes, but of course this is no real plate discipline but rather a little league approach and pitchers will adapt to this.

    Still a better approach than his current

    Leave a comment:


  • NYMets523
    replied
    Originally posted by majorleads View Post
    You kids are so spoiled because you grew up in the age of steroids where everyone in the lineup was expected to get on base every time.
    That's not my point at all.

    To me, 100 RBI's is still 100 RBI's anyway you slice it. I would rather my cleanup hitter knock in 100 runs with a .300 OBP than have him knock in 75 with a .400 OBP.
    Is it always about the total RBIs? What if the guy with a 400 OBP drove in 90% of the runs that were on base when he came to bat while the .300 OBP guy only drove in 75% of the runs that were on base for him? Is the guy with only 75 RBIs inferior to the guy with 100 RBIs even though the former drove in a higher percentage of runs? RBIs are the most useless statistic because of this. It depends so much on the other players that it tells ZERO, absolutely nothing, about the individual player other than they played a lot to get those RBIs.

    Also, a guy with a 300 OBP has no business hitting 4th in a lineup.

    Remember now, this is the NATIONAL LEAGUE not the AL, we don't have stacked lineups. Walks don't mean as much the further you go down the lineup.
    Walks mean just as much. Yes, the AL has the DH but few, if any, AL teams have a lineup 9 deep.

    Also OBP and OPS doesn't tell you sh*t!!! Big whoop so you walk or hit a triple when you're team is trailing by 5 runs in the 8th inning.
    So what do you want them to do then when they're down 5 runs? Give up?

    And whenever I speak to one of these OPS lovers, they always discount clutch stats. Why is that? The OPS lover puts more stock in a guy who has a zillion OPS or whatever is a good OPS number over someone who bats .300 with RISP and 2 outs or late and close situations.
    There is no pattern to clutch statistics. A hitter can be a great clutch hitter one year and a lousy one the next. Look at A-Rod in 2007. The guys who are real clutch hitters are the ones who hit inline with their career totals in those clutch situations.

    All you OPS guys are a broken record.
    OPS-haters like yourself are no different.

    Once again, good pitching, good defense, and timely hitting is what consistently wins you baseball games. OPS does not. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
    Good hitters have good OPS and you're going to win more games when you have more good hitters in the lineup. It's not reinventing the formula to win games, it's a tool to measure a player's individual, offensive production.
    Last edited by NYMets523; 08-02-2009, 11:05 AM.

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  • Joltin' Joe
    replied
    Originally posted by majorleads View Post

    To me, 100 RBI's is still 100 RBI's anyway you slice it. I would rather my cleanup hitter knock in 100 runs with a .300 OBP than have him knock in 75 with a .400 OBP.

    So by your logic, Tony Batista had a better year than Barry Bonds in 2004.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...atisto01.shtml

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ondsba01.shtml

    Leave a comment:


  • majorleads
    replied
    Originally posted by m8644 View Post
    Jeff Francoeour is a bad baseball player.....You are not a valuable offensive player when you play the outfield and cant put up a .320 OBP or .750 OPS. Sorry but stats dont lie.

    And RBI is a TERRIBLE way to judge a player. They are TEAM dependant.
    So you'd rather Francoeur walk and not try to knock in the run so he can leave it up to the next hitter who is most likely weaker? Isn't that being team dependent too?

    Leave a comment:


  • majorleads
    replied
    Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
    But a base hit with no one on doesn't drive in runs. Therefore Francoeur isn't earning his paycheck according to you.



    Yeah, because Francoeur drives in a run every time he comes to bat....



    What makes a guy an "RBI guy"?



    At least you're admitting you're closed-minded.



    You're making it sound like a guy who walks is passing the buck to the guy behind him when that couldn't be further from the truth. Guys who walk can recognize balls and strikes and that is a huge part of hitting. You cannot be a good hitter if you don't recognize balls from strikes. You're not always going to get a pitch to hit every at-bat and you're not going to get pitched to very at bat.

    There's a reason why your line of thinking went extinct in baseball.
    You kids are so spoiled because you grew up in the age of steroids where everyone in the lineup was expected to get on base every time.

    To me, 100 RBI's is still 100 RBI's anyway you slice it. I would rather my cleanup hitter knock in 100 runs with a .300 OBP than have him knock in 75 with a .400 OBP.

    Remember now, this is the NATIONAL LEAGUE not the AL, we don't have stacked lineups. Walks don't mean as much the further you go down the lineup.

    Also OBP and OPS doesn't tell you sh*t!!! Big whoop so you walk or hit a triple when you're team is trailing by 5 runs in the 8th inning. And whenever I speak to one of these OPS lovers, they always discount clutch stats. Why is that? The OPS lover puts more stock in a guy who has a zillion OPS or whatever is a good OPS number over someone who bats .300 with RISP and 2 outs or late and close situations. All you OPS guys are a broken record.

    Once again, good pitching, good defense, and timely hitting is what consistently wins you baseball games. OPS does not. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

    Leave a comment:


  • m8644
    replied
    Jeff Francoeour is a bad baseball player.....You are not a valuable offensive player when you play the outfield and cant put up a .320 OBP or .750 OPS. Sorry but stats dont lie.

    And RBI is a TERRIBLE way to judge a player. They are TEAM dependant.

    Leave a comment:


  • nerfan
    replied
    There are SOME good hitters with only a little plate discipline

    George Sisler
    Alfonso Soriano
    Dustin Pedroia
    Ivan Rodriguez

    But there are only a few people who can manage this.

    Jeff Francoeur also has LESS discipline than these guys.

    He's a bad hitter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Let's Go Mets!
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    It also tells me that he has a .324 OBP thanks to his 1 walk. The RBI are no doubt helped by the opportunities provided by Castillo leading the NL in BA in July and Wright's .358 OBP.
    Also.....kudos to Mr. Castillo & Mr. Wright for doing their jobs well in the month of July.

    They got on base, and Mr. Francouer also did his job by driving them home (at a pace which would produce a 172 RBI season).

    I agree, however, he could be more disciplined at the plate and draw more walks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Let's Go Mets!
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    It also tells me that he has a .324 OBP thanks to his 1 walk. The RBI are no doubt helped by the opportunities provided by Castillo leading the NL in BA in July and Wright's .358 OBP.
    With all things being the same, put Francouer on the Yankees, and I'd bet he'd have more than 5 runs scored.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Let's Go Mets! View Post
    Francoeur has 17 RBIs in 16 games, with a .306 average.

    The 5 runs scored tells me he is followed by a parade of .240 hitters.
    It also tells me that he has a .324 OBP thanks to his 1 walk. The RBI are no doubt helped by the opportunities provided by Castillo leading the NL in BA in July and Wright's .358 OBP.

    Leave a comment:


  • Let's Go Mets!
    replied
    Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
    Francoeur is what he is, a hacker. His modest hot streak is to be enjoyed, but do not expect it to last. The 17 rbi's is nice, if fluky, but the 5 runs scored is more telling.
    Francoeur has 17 RBIs in 16 games, with a .306 average.

    The 5 runs scored tells me he is followed by a parade of .240 hitters.

    Leave a comment:


  • KCGHOST
    replied
    Francoeur is what he is, a hacker. His modest hot streak is to be enjoyed, but do not expect it to last. The 17 rbi's is nice, if fluky, but the 5 runs scored is more telling.

    Leave a comment:


  • NYMets523
    replied
    Originally posted by majorleads View Post
    Get an extra base hit? Hit a home run?
    But a base hit with no one on doesn't drive in runs. Therefore Francoeur isn't earning his paycheck according to you.

    I guess you'd still rather have Church so he could walk to lead off the inning right? Just make sure Church isn't up with runners on base because there is a great chance he won't drive them in!!
    Yeah, because Francoeur drives in a run every time he comes to bat....

    But where Church hits in the lineup, he will have the most RBI chances, and you want your best RBI guys swinging the bat, not walking and leaving it up to the next guy.
    What makes a guy an "RBI guy"?

    And I don't give a sh*t what Francoeur's OBP is
    At least you're admitting you're closed-minded.

    just as long as he drives in the runs! I looked a couple of days ago and Francoeur only had 3 runs scored since he became a Met. All 3 of the runs were scored on HR's he hit! That means nobody behind him is driving him home when he gets on base. (He's been on base a lot since he came here) And thats why you want him swinging the bat! DUH!
    You're making it sound like a guy who walks is passing the buck to the guy behind him when that couldn't be further from the truth. Guys who walk can recognize balls and strikes and that is a huge part of hitting. You cannot be a good hitter if you don't recognize balls from strikes. You're not always going to get a pitch to hit every at-bat and you're not going to get pitched to very at bat.

    There's a reason why your line of thinking went extinct in baseball.
    Last edited by NYMets523; 07-31-2009, 09:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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