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  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by trepye View Post
    No, the intended anology is the carrot (sabremetrics=[haphazard] "winning" on the cheap) was placed by Aldy in front on the mule (Wilpons) to lure them into hiring him. Think snake oil salesman.
    So you think Alderson used his "snake oil salesman" skills to get the job? Sort of revisionist history don't you think?

    Leave a comment:


  • trepye
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    Quite possibly the cart is before the horse here.

    I tend to believe that Jeff/Fred had the idea of cutting payroll etc, and championed Alderson with the task.

    Do you believe if Fred went to Alderson and said "Hey Sandy we are going to bump our payroll budget up to $140MM" that Alderson answer would be "Fred, no way - I really rather work in the sewer that you previously created".

    Alderson gets his directives from his boss....Fred or Jeff based upon structure that they want. Alderson has input into building and maintaining this structure, but if the Wilpons decided that the budget changes...then Alderson reworks his ideals to fit his BOSSES budget.
    No, the intended anology is the carrot (sabremetrics=[haphazard] "winning" on the cheap) was placed by Aldy in front on the mule (Wilpons) to lure them into hiring him. Think snake oil salesman.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    No I follow the Mets and the playoffs which is obviously Met-free. Go to about one Yankee game a year. Too far and have to use the ezpass though.
    I occasionally watch the Knicks and Jets with my son. Must admit can't sit thru a hockey game.
    I hear ya. I am not a huge hockey fan, but I was totally engrossed in the Rangers this past spring. Playoff hockey is really exciting stuff.

    As far as baseball... I watch baseball to be entertained (like anything else I guess). I love watching great players play the game. Which is why being a Met fan is so frustrating because honestly they never had a truly great player come up through the system ....truly great.....and be that guy that you associate with the Mets. I just had this conversation today - I was the biggest Darryl Strawberry fan around. I thought he was going to be "that guy". He should have been and he wasn't. Wright wasn't, Reyes wasn't. If you haven't noticed by now I love the power guys. The guys that turn the game around with one swing. The guys that you have to watch every at bat because he may hit a ball as far as one has ever been hit.

    The Mets haven't produced that HOF player.... That is why I watch so many other games, teams and players. I love watching great players play.....the Mets have been void of this type of player.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mister B.
    replied
    Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    ...I follow the Mets and the playoffs which is obviously Met-free...
    Yup. That pretty much captures about fifty seasons of Mets baseball.

    Leave a comment:


  • LI METS FAN
    replied
    No I follow the Mets and the playoffs which is obviously Met-free. Go to about one Yankee game a year. Too far and have to use the ezpass though.
    I occasionally watch the Knicks and Jets with my son. Must admit can't sit thru a hockey game.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    You once said you not only did not follow any other teams except the Mets, but you did not even follow other sports period. Wow, have you ever watched the MLB playoffs these past 8 years? You could be missing some good baseball.
    Wow LIMets -- is that true? Never mind the fact that I follow football pretty intently, and the Knicks & Rangers to a lesser degree - I couldn't imagine if the Mets were my whole baseball fandom. I probably would have stopped watching baseball if it was the Mets or bust.

    I give you credit if that's the case for taking the visual beating the Mets have given out the past 6 seasons.

    I have watched a lot of Yankee games (probably blasphemy to you), and I always have the MLB Network on.

    Leave a comment:


  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    The Phils payroll in 2008 when they won the WS was $98mil, today its $177mil.

    The Rangers payroll in 2010 was $64mil when they won the pennant, in 2011 was $92mil. Today its $133mil.

    Both those teams made it to the WS when they had a lower payroll. Their higher payroll today- last place.
    It seems that the higher payroll comes after success, not before. At least in those two instances.

    And the last time a small budget team won the WS would be the 25th highest payroll team in that season, the 2003 Florida Marlins.
    You may be correct on the Florida Marlins in 2003.....The article I used for my reference did not mention them. However, I do see some figures where the Marlins were 25th opening day at $49,050.00 but by the World Series the payroll was over $54 million, making them 18th or 19th. Still, they beat a team with a $164 million payroll in the WS.

    We all know that teams have to backload contracts. Philly, Texas, Red Sox, Yankees were all stuck with huge contracts after they won. Just like the Mets are stuck with Grandy and Wright now, and the NYY are stuck with A-roid.

    But that's a good pickup on the 2003 Marlins ! You once said you not only did not follow any other teams except the Mets, but you did not even follow other sports period. Wow, have you ever watched the MLB playoffs these past 8 years? You could be missing some good baseball.

    Leave a comment:


  • LI METS FAN
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    Yes, some teams now have bloated salaries with old has-beens on the roster. When teams take chances to win, it happens. Phillies...5 straight NL east titles, 2 pennants, and a WS. Would Mets fans take this over the next 5 years? Texas, back to back pennants....something Mets never did. Boston....after an epic drought, they win Three WS in 10 years....are you telling me that no Mets fan would take 3 WS in a decade? The Yankees....yes, old and done, but they did win in 2009 which enabled them to generate hundreds of millions in income since then. And it was their 5 th WS and 7th pennant since 1996....something Mets fans can't even fathom. "MY" Angels...yeah, I wish. What is it now, 12 straight years of 3 million fans, with a $150 million per year TV contract? Are you serious that Mets fans would not trade franchises even up right now? (Especially owners).

    The MLB network is my favorite channel. And while I root for the Giants ..I will root for the Dodgers if the Giants are not in it (NY heritage). As for the Angels, I do admire them and enjoy going to games in Anaheim. But in full disclosure, my favorite team in the AL has always been the Chicago White Sox (maybe because they gave the Mets Tommie Agee, Al Weiss and JC Martin or maybe because I never liked the Cubs). The Chisox have a history worse than the Mets...except they somehow have an all time winning record and the Mets don't.

    While the outlook is rosier than it has been for a while for the Mets, the fact remains that this is the 8th straight season we are watching other teams compete in the playoffs, or the 13th time in 14 years the Mets are not in the post season. It's tough to look at other teams misfortunes with a miserable track record like the Mets have had since 1986.

    Can you please tell us when was the last time a small budget team won a world series? Really....try to find a team that won a WS with a low payroll for that season. My research came up with the 1987 Twins, who were 19th in payroll that year ...the Mets are currently around 23rd in MLB.
    The Phils payroll in 2008 when they won the WS was $98mil, today its $177mil.

    The Rangers payroll in 2010 was $64mil when they won the pennant, in 2011 was $92mil. Today its $133mil.

    Both those teams made it to the WS when they had a lower payroll. Their higher payroll today- last place.
    It seems that the higher payroll comes after success, not before. At least in those two instances.

    And the last time a small budget team won the WS would be the 25th highest payroll team in that season, the 2003 Florida Marlins.
    Last edited by LI METS FAN; 09-24-2014, 11:17 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by trepye View Post
    There is something to be said about teams competing to stay afloat a la As, Rangers, Twins, Rays, etc; many playoffs appearances, minimal to no WS victories.

    And its is a complete other to say teams are competing to win it all, or even dynasties even a la Angels, Giants, Red Soxs.

    Nats are building to develop a dynasty; Aldy and the Mets are building to stay afloat. But that is the Sabrematicians business model; stay competitive under a very constrained budget. And when Aldy floated this idea to Jeff and Fred once they were done salivating over profit margins of this business model in the biggest market in US they, wiped their mouths (and disregarded what they had of sage baseball ideals) and told him that he was hired; the hell with everything else.

    The one thing that they missed was that small market ideals do not work in NYC; the fans care too much and are much too educated to buy this BS... as a result the fans DETEST them even more than before (as it turns out its possible). Maybe one day enough of us Mets fans will all reach that level of hatred and reach consensus and hence employ the democratic power of capitalism and vote with the closure of our wallets and attention and not show up or watch SNY; ignore them to the point of bankruptcy, if you will. If you are not taking this commitment then watch yourself get old with the mediocrity that this franchise provides; but most importantly don't complain because if you are paying for this crap product you are essentially part of the problem and not the solutions. This is what I have been doing since 2012, I see no other recourse to take.
    Quite possibly the cart is before the horse here.

    I tend to believe that Jeff/Fred had the idea of cutting payroll etc, and championed Alderson with the task.

    Do you believe if Fred went to Alderson and said "Hey Sandy we are going to bump our payroll budget up to $140MM" that Alderson answer would be "Fred, no way - I really rather work in the sewer that you previously created".

    Alderson gets his directives from his boss....Fred or Jeff based upon structure that they want. Alderson has input into building and maintaining this structure, but if the Wilpons decided that the budget changes...then Alderson reworks his ideals to fit his BOSSES budget.

    Leave a comment:


  • trepye
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    Yes, some teams now have bloated salaries with old has-beens on the roster. When teams take chances to win, it happens. Phillies...5 straight NL east titles, 2 pennants, and a WS. Would Mets fans take this over the next 5 years? Texas, back to back pennants....something Mets never did. Boston....after an epic drought, they win Three WS in 10 years....are you telling me that no Mets fan would take 3 WS in a decade? The Yankees....yes, old and done, but they did win in 2009 which enabled them to generate hundreds of millions in income since then. And it was their 5 th WS and 7th pennant since 1996....something Mets fans can't even fathom. "MY" Angels...yeah, I wish. What is it now, 12 straight years of 3 million fans, with a $150 million per year TV contract? Are you serious that Mets fans would not trade franchises even up right now? (Especially owners).

    The MLB network is my favorite channel. And while I root for the Giants ..I will root for the Dodgers if the Giants are not in it (NY heritage). As for the Angels, I do admire them and enjoy going to games in Anaheim. But in full disclosure, my favorite team in the AL has always been the Chicago White Sox (maybe because they gave the Mets Tommie Agee, Al Weiss and JC Martin or maybe because I never liked the Cubs). The Chisox have a history worse than the Mets...except they somehow have an all time winning record and the Mets don't.

    While the outlook is rosier than it has been for a while for the Mets, the fact remains that this is the 8th straight season we are watching other teams compete in the playoffs, or the 13th time in 14 years the Mets are not in the post season. It's tough to look at other teams misfortunes with a miserable track record like the Mets have had since 1986.

    Can you please tell us when was the last time a small budget team won a world series? Really....try to find a team that won a WS with a low payroll for that season. My research came up with the 1987 Twins, who were 19th in payroll that year ...the Mets are currently around 23rd in MLB.
    There is something to be said about teams competing to stay afloat a la As, Rangers, Twins, Rays, etc; many playoffs appearances, minimal to no WS victories.

    And its is a complete other to say teams are competing to win it all, or even dynasties even a la Angels, Giants, Red Soxs.

    Nats are building to develop a dynasty; Aldy and the Mets are building to stay afloat. But that is the Sabrematicians business model; stay competitive under a very constrained budget. And when Aldy floated this idea to Jeff and Fred once they were done salivating over profit margins of this business model in the biggest market in US they, wiped their mouths (and disregarded what they had of sage baseball ideals) and told him that he was hired; the hell with everything else.

    The one thing that they missed was that small market ideals do not work in NYC; the fans care too much and are much too educated to buy this BS... as a result the fans DETEST them even more than before (as it turns out its possible). Maybe one day enough of us Mets fans will all reach that level of hatred and reach consensus and hence employ the democratic power of capitalism and vote with the closure of our wallets and attention and not show up or watch SNY; ignore them to the point of bankruptcy, if you will. If you are not taking this commitment then watch yourself get old with the mediocrity that this franchise provides; but most importantly don't complain because if you are paying for this crap product you are essentially part of the problem and not the solutions. This is what I have been doing since 2012, I see no other recourse to take.

    Leave a comment:


  • LI METS FAN
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    I am not really sure I compared the Mets to any individual team, never mind it being the Nats - the best team right now in the NL.

    What I said was that I think the Mets can compete for a WC spot. Which means they have to win about 10 more games. I also gave a list of things that I feel are needed to happen. Those things are necessary for the Mets to progress - if they don't happen well then we will be back in the same spot.

    I didn't say the Mets will be a monster team or a WS favorite. Just that I expect them to compete next year.
    Well said. I think they should compete in 2015 but don't believe they will do much over the off season unless it's via trades. Spending money- not so much.

    Leave a comment:


  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
    On paper today the Mets are nowhere near the Nats in talent. A lot can and will happen by this time next year. But even the most pessimistic Met fan must admit they go into this off season with more talent on their roster than they have had in a long time. They should be able to trade some of that talent to help them fill some needs. Will they be the 86 Mets next year? I doubt it but they should at a minimum be able to compete with many other mediocre teams who have a chance to get into the playoffs.

    Its not how much you spend but how wisely you spend it. Ask the Phil's, Rangers, Bosox , Yanks and your 2013 Angels. But yes, I too would feel this current Met teams could have much more depth with a 100 million 2015 payroll.
    Yes, some teams now have bloated salaries with old has-beens on the roster. When teams take chances to win, it happens. Phillies...5 straight NL east titles, 2 pennants, and a WS. Would Mets fans take this over the next 5 years? Texas, back to back pennants....something Mets never did. Boston....after an epic drought, they win Three WS in 10 years....are you telling me that no Mets fan would take 3 WS in a decade? The Yankees....yes, old and done, but they did win in 2009 which enabled them to generate hundreds of millions in income since then. And it was their 5 th WS and 7th pennant since 1996....something Mets fans can't even fathom. "MY" Angels...yeah, I wish. What is it now, 12 straight years of 3 million fans, with a $150 million per year TV contract? Are you serious that Mets fans would not trade franchises even up right now? (Especially owners).

    The MLB network is my favorite channel. And while I root for the Giants ..I will root for the Dodgers if the Giants are not in it (NY heritage). As for the Angels, I do admire them and enjoy going to games in Anaheim. But in full disclosure, my favorite team in the AL has always been the Chicago White Sox (maybe because they gave the Mets Tommie Agee, Al Weiss and JC Martin or maybe because I never liked the Cubs). The Chisox have a history worse than the Mets...except they somehow have an all time winning record and the Mets don't.

    While the outlook is rosier than it has been for a while for the Mets, the fact remains that this is the 8th straight season we are watching other teams compete in the playoffs, or the 13th time in 14 years the Mets are not in the post season. It's tough to look at other teams misfortunes with a miserable track record like the Mets have had since 1986.

    Can you please tell us when was the last time a small budget team won a world series? Really....try to find a team that won a WS with a low payroll for that season. My research came up with the 1987 Twins, who were 19th in payroll that year ...the Mets are currently around 23rd in MLB.
    Last edited by mandrake; 09-24-2014, 06:34 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    I get the optimism, but I need some more proof. After the end of 2006 with a certain nasty curve ball, the Mets were in first place in 2007...until the historic 7 game lead with 17 games to play, the Mets won 88 games and finished one out. That 2007 team was not bad, and in 2008 most of us were saying that the Mets would win the NL east and that there was no way the Mets would collapse again. Well, they did not have that historic collapse, but they folded again. Those of us on baseball fever were subjected to many members posting how they 1) hated the Marlins for winning, knocking the Mets out, and even scooping up Shea's dirt to take away , and 2) the venom directed at hall of famer Tom Glavine because he said he was "disappointed, not devastated".

    In 2009, with the opening of Citi Field with its Ebbets Club and everything else as a homage to the Brooklyn Dodgers, Sports Illustrated picked the Mets to beat the Angels in the 2009 World Series. The Angels came close, losing to the eventual WS champ NYY 4-2, but the Mets were a disaster going 70-92.

    Still, the Wilpon-pon club did not learn from the WS picks and they were all over here in 2010 predicting how improved the Mets would be. They actually improved to 79-83, but didn't come close to the playoffs. In 2011, they got slightly worse and went 77-85. In 2012 they slipped more going 74-88 despite having a Cy Young winner. In 2013, Harvey exploded on the scene and right before we could induct him into Cooperstown, he got hurt and the Mets were 74-88 again. This year, they have improved a few games, with an outside chance of making my 81-81 prediction still out there.

    Barring injuries the Mets staff will be similar to the 1970 Mets and 1971 Mets...excellent starting staffs, good bullpen; but not a real MLB hitting lineup . I am not sold on Duda, I think Murphy could be a goner, SS is a big question, Wright is a bigger question, and Granderson is the biggest question.

    Now that 5 teams make the playoffs (heck I think 8 teams are STILL alive in the American League) the Mets could compete with a half dozen other teams for a WC slot. However, put on the Chicago Cubs TV or even the SD Padres, and you will hear some of the same things being sold to their fan bases.....especially the Cubs and their 'best farm system' in MLB. Wait til next year Cubbies fans, ....

    Does anyone really think the Mets are close , right now, to the Nationals? I read where Terry Collins thinks so, but he can't explain why they have destroyed the Mets . 13 -3 and counting?

    Does anyone think the Nationals stand still and wait for the Mets to catch them? The Nationals payroll is $125 million. That is 1.5 times the Mets payroll of $82 million. Maybe I am wrong (again) but I can't see the Mets catching the Nats until they close the money gap.
    Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    The Nats are a better team. Much better. But they've never won even one playoff series. No telling if they regress next year like they did last year. Should be fun.
    Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
    On paper today the Mets are nowhere near the Nats in talent. A lot can and will happen by this time next year. But even the most pessimistic Met fan must admit they go into this off season with more talent on their roster than they have had in a long time. They should be able to trade some of that talent to help them fill some needs. Will they be the 86 Mets next year? I doubt it but they should at a minimum be able to compete with many other mediocre teams who have a chance to get into the playoffs.

    Its not how much you spend but how wisely you spend it. Ask the Phil's, Rangers, Bosox , Yanks and your 2013 Angels. But yes, I too would feel this current Met teams could have much more depth with a 100 million 2015 payroll.
    I am not really sure I compared the Mets to any individual team, never mind it being the Nats - the best team right now in the NL.

    What I said was that I think the Mets can compete for a WC spot. Which means they have to win about 10 more games. I also gave a list of things that I feel are needed to happen. Those things are necessary for the Mets to progress - if they don't happen well then we will be back in the same spot.

    I didn't say the Mets will be a monster team or a WS favorite. Just that I expect them to compete next year.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjsallstars
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    I get the optimism, but I need some more proof. After the end of 2006 with a certain nasty curve ball, the Mets were in first place in 2007...until the historic 7 game lead with 17 games to play, the Mets won 88 games and finished one out. That 2007 team was not bad, and in 2008 most of us were saying that the Mets would win the NL east and that there was no way the Mets would collapse again. Well, they did not have that historic collapse, but they folded again. Those of us on baseball fever were subjected to many members posting how they 1) hated the Marlins for winning, knocking the Mets out, and even scooping up Shea's dirt to take away , and 2) the venom directed at hall of famer Tom Glavine because he said he was "disappointed, not devastated".

    In 2009, with the opening of Citi Field with its Ebbets Club and everything else as a homage to the Brooklyn Dodgers, Sports Illustrated picked the Mets to beat the Angels in the 2009 World Series. The Angels came close, losing to the eventual WS champ NYY 4-2, but the Mets were a disaster going 70-92.

    Still, the Wilpon-pon club did not learn from the WS picks and they were all over here in 2010 predicting how improved the Mets would be. They actually improved to 79-83, but didn't come close to the playoffs. In 2011, they got slightly worse and went 77-85. In 2012 they slipped more going 74-88 despite having a Cy Young winner. In 2013, Harvey exploded on the scene and right before we could induct him into Cooperstown, he got hurt and the Mets were 74-88 again. This year, they have improved a few games, with an outside chance of making my 81-81 prediction still out there.

    Barring injuries the Mets staff will be similar to the 1970 Mets and 1971 Mets...excellent starting staffs, good bullpen; but not a real MLB hitting lineup . I am not sold on Duda, I think Murphy could be a goner, SS is a big question, Wright is a bigger question, and Granderson is the biggest question.

    Now that 5 teams make the playoffs (heck I think 8 teams are STILL alive in the American League) the Mets could compete with a half dozen other teams for a WC slot. However, put on the Chicago Cubs TV or even the SD Padres, and you will hear some of the same things being sold to their fan bases.....especially the Cubs and their 'best farm system' in MLB. Wait til next year Cubbies fans, ....

    Does anyone really think the Mets are close , right now, to the Nationals? I read where Terry Collins thinks so, but he can't explain why they have destroyed the Mets . 13 -3 and counting?

    Does anyone think the Nationals stand still and wait for the Mets to catch them? The Nationals payroll is $125 million. That is 1.5 times the Mets payroll of $82 million. Maybe I am wrong (again) but I can't see the Mets catching the Nats until they close the money gap.
    On paper today the Mets are nowhere near the Nats in talent. A lot can and will happen by this time next year. But even the most pessimistic Met fan must admit they go into this off season with more talent on their roster than they have had in a long time. They should be able to trade some of that talent to help them fill some needs. Will they be the 86 Mets next year? I doubt it but they should at a minimum be able to compete with many other mediocre teams who have a chance to get into the playoffs.

    Its not how much you spend but how wisely you spend it. Ask the Phil's, Rangers, Bosox , Yanks and your 2013 Angels. But yes, I too would feel this current Met teams could have much more depth with a 100 million 2015 payroll.

    Leave a comment:


  • LI METS FAN
    replied
    The Nats are a better team. Much better. But they've never won even one playoff series. No telling if they regress next year like they did last year. Should be fun.

    Leave a comment:

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