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  • So I was wrong about what the more vocal folks here think. (I'm sure there's a silent majority of critical thinkers though!) But, I'm right in general - I don't think Alderson's plan allows for bringing in mid-season talent, more payroll, and going for it. I think he's basically dissembling, running out the clock, and clearly sees that with this bullpen, the team won't really contend. They'll fall back. Then at the deadline, he can make the kind of moves his blueprint. And yet this team had a chance! With some real moves - the kind contenders make every year - the Mets could have overcome this downfall. Alderson just slides along, going on the radio yesterday to talk about how he's (just now!) sending out his pro scouts to MLB cities, how he's interested in being a buyer "at the right price," how how he knows and understands the bullpen must be improved.

    Action? None. Not in the plan. A non-contending .500 or just below regrouping season was in the plan.

    Here's Matt Cerrone of Metsblog - a rabidly pro-Alderson voice since the guy got here:

    I believe in what Sandy Alderson is doing here long term, but if he’s going to go on radio and tell reporters (like he did yesterday) that he’s committed to improving this roster and competing in 2012 (albeit not at the detriment of the farm system) then that has to happen now. I realize it’s a trade ‘market,’ and other teams are not open for business yet, so no matter how badly Sandy, you or I want him to make a deal it has to take time. But, dear lord, man, for the sake of the other 14 guys on the roster, the coaching staff and fans – all of whom have worked too hard and cared too much this season to see it voided out by a eight men who couldn’t close an umbrella (let alone a baseball game) – do something.
    If Alderson's losing Cerrone, he's losing quite a bit.
    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
      So I was wrong about what the more vocal folks here think. (I'm sure there's a silent majority of critical thinkers though!) But, I'm right in general - I don't think Alderson's plan allows for bringing in mid-season talent, more payroll, and going for it. I think he's basically dissembling, running out the clock, and clearly sees that with this bullpen, the team won't really contend. They'll fall back. Then at the deadline, he can make the kind of moves his blueprint. And yet this team had a chance! With some real moves - the kind contenders make every year - the Mets could have overcome this downfall. Alderson just slides along, going on the radio yesterday to talk about how he's (just now!) sending out his pro scouts to MLB cities, how he's interested in being a buyer "at the right price," how how he knows and understands the bullpen must be improved.

      Action? None. Not in the plan. A non-contending .500 or just below regrouping season was in the plan.

      Here's Matt Cerrone of Metsblog - a rabidly pro-Alderson voice since the guy got here:



      If Alderson's losing Cerrone, he's losing quite a bit.
      I'm still not sure how your thinking the upper management of a business is hoping to fail is critical thinking. And open forums never have a silent majority.
      Last edited by ribant; 07-18-2012, 12:41 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ribant View Post
        I'm still not sure how your thinking the upper management of a business is hoping to fail is critical thinking. And open forums never have a silent majority.
        Fine - your actual thoughts?
        Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

        Comment


        • "So I was wrong about what the more vocal folks here think...But, I'm right in general."

          ...I suppose as long as you say it over and over again (I'm mostly ribbing you, Strawman, but you do sometimes come off as stating something as if it's the only possible position...which I admit I myself do in everyday life sometimes, but about important things where I'd think you should need to have a firm conviction to back what you're saying...not with something as trivial as a sports team--

          Since 1908, aside from there being four balls to a walk, three strikes to a K, and the Cubs never winning the World Series, very little about baseball can be said as if it were an absolute truth. Well, I guess, at least being a Mets fan...I can still pick on the Cubs!)

          "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pstein View Post
            Sometimes I wonder if you actually mean these things or if you just say them to rile people up.
            This has been my thinking since this thread started. Sometimes its so over the top that it cant be real.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pstein View Post
              This is ridiculous. Maybe he doesn't want to pull a Steve Phillips?

              Sometimes I wonder if you actually mean these things or if you just say them to rile people up.
              Originally posted by Strawman View Post
              I'm certainly glad Alderson is starting to mobilize his scouts on the major league level to consider the possible talent that's available in a methodical, leisurely fashion (as per his remarks today). The market "hasn't firmed up yet." And when it does, the Mets will be looking for bargains, according to beat reporters. Which is cool. Clearly, this bullpen can wait.
              How the F do you know what Alderson is doing? Its not like the Mets have a ton to offer to sure up the bullpen, and as you know if you watched baseball for my than 5 minutes that bullpen help is always at a premium come the trade dead line. Teams with a lot more chips than the Mets are trying to sure up the pen.

              Funny thing is your going to bitch and moan no matter who he brings in and no matter what he does. Just face it...the Met pen is just sport for you so you can come here and complain about Alderson, and you think others feel the same way. Your an army of one.

              If Alderson brought Christ, and the 12 Apostles in for the pitching staff you would complain.

              Comment


              • Sounds nice, reads well, however moves for immediate help cost top prospects or roster players here for the long run.

                The only teams selling are not giving away, there is competition for them and most of those players come with baggage which is why most are available.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                  How the F do you know what Alderson is doing? Its not like the Mets have a ton to offer to sure up the bullpen, and as you know if you watched baseball for my than 5 minutes that bullpen help is always at a premium come the trade dead line. Teams with a lot more chips than the Mets are trying to sure up the pen.

                  Funny thing is your going to bitch and moan no matter who he brings in and no matter what he does. Just face it...the Met pen is just sport for you so you can come here and complain about Alderson, and you think others feel the same way. Your an army of one.

                  If Alderson brought Christ, and the 12 Apostles in for the pitching staff you would complain.
                  I thought this place was about the Mets? Who cares what my motivation is - no matter how wildly off-base you may be?
                  Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                  Comment


                  • It is a Mets forum. Why are you posting your irrelevant, stupid opinions then?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                      Fine - your actual thoughts?
                      Alderson, like every other GM in the majors is looking to find the sweet spot between five questions

                      What is our realistic chance of making the playoffs?
                      Who can I get to improve that chance?
                      Who do I have to give up to get that player?
                      Does that player make us a better team than we were before?
                      or if trading a prospect for a veteran.
                      Does the short term value of the vet exceed the long term value of the prospect?

                      My take, and it's only my take

                      Management and ownership has to be tickled pink that playoff contention is even a conversation.

                      My call is they aren't getting a playoff berth with or with out a competent closer and should not mortgage the future to get rent one.
                      Wheeler, Harvey, and Edgin have too much upside to trade just to make some fans happy.

                      All they have to trade in the big show are Duda, Nuienhuis, Murphy, Davis, Valdespin, Niese and Parnell. Except for Niese none of them is worth much on the trade market. Valdespin is the only one I would give up for Broxton, and he may not be enough.

                      So in reality what are Sandy's moves? Right now it looks like not too many. Trading for another cr*p reliever solves nothing. There aren't any big name catchers or outfielders out there they have anything to give up to get.

                      The best strategy for the Mets is keep playing Kirk, Duda and Murphy and see how they finish the year. Same for Ike. Hope this is the real Jonathon Niese. Pray Dickey and Santana's recent outings are just a bad stretch. See if Wright can keep putting up MVP candidate numbers. Develop the minor league arms.

                      And build for the future.

                      Let me add that if I were Alderson and could trade any of the above players except Niese and Davis for a good prospect or two I would do so.
                      Last edited by ribant; 07-18-2012, 02:54 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Oh, it's okay Sandy... PLEASE throw away prospects for a bullpen guy.

                        Why don't we get K-Rod back, it's not like he's doing anything worthwhile. While we're at it, let's trade the farm for Reyes too, that way there wouldn't be any chance of a loss! Or even BETTER, let's re-sign Beltran without knowing how his knee will hold up or if can even be an every day player anymore.

                        (Hopefully you've all noticed I'm being facetious)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                          This has been my thinking since this thread started. Sometimes its so over the top that it cant be real.
                          Re-signing Beltran and Reyes would've made this team World Series contenders, you know that...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ribant View Post
                            Alderson, like every other GM in the majors is looking to find the sweet spot between five questions

                            What is our realistic chance of making the playoffs?
                            Who can I get to improve that chance?
                            Who do I have to give up to get that player?
                            Does that player make us a better team than we were before?
                            or if trading a prospect for a veteran.
                            Does the short term value of the vet exceed the long term value of the prospect?

                            My take, and it's only my take

                            Management and ownership has to be tickled pink that playoff contention is even a conversation.

                            My call is they aren't getting a playoff berth with or with out a competent closer and should not mortgage the future to get rent one.
                            Wheeler, Harvey, and Edgin have too much upside to trade just to make some fans happy.

                            All they have to trade in the big show are Duda, Nuienhuis, Murphy, Davis, Valdespin, Niese and Parnell. Except for Niese none of them is worth much on the trade market. Valdespin is the only one I would give up for Broxton, and he may not be enough.

                            So in reality what are Sandy's moves? Right now it looks like not too many. Trading for another cr*p reliever solves nothing. There aren't any big name catchers or outfielders out there they have anything to give up to get.

                            The best strategy for the Mets is keep playing Kirk, Duda and Murphy and see how they finish the year. Same for Ike. Hope this is the real Jonathon Niese. Pray Dickey and Santana's recent outings are just a bad stretch. See if Wright can keep putting up MVP candidate numbers. Develop the minor league arms.

                            And build for the future.

                            Let me add that if I were Alderson and could trade any of the above players except Niese and Davis for a good prospect or two I would do so.
                            I actually agree with this analysis, except for one key aspect - the Mets have the single worst bullpen in Major League Baseball. There's no other crap bullpen Alderson can cobble together that - in all likelihood - can be worse than this, statistically (by a long way) the very bottom of a very deep barrel. So he can and should make moves - a bunch of them, changing out at least 3 slots in the pen as soon as possible.

                            Mets' chances at post-season - I dunno, 10-15% - used to be higher? But given how this fan base has suffered and given the life this year's team has somehow put back in (in reality based on two big starters, in my view) it's malpractice not to try. All this "mortgage the future" stuff is mere mid-direction and sloganeering. The future is mere theory, especially when it hinges on a couple of young arms. And honestly, outside of the Wheeler acquition, how is Sandy Alderson "building for the future?" I simply don't see any building going on at all.

                            One thing I'd add: Alderson should order Collins to play Valdespin in the outfield for the rest of the season. All three slots.
                            Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                              I actually agree with this analysis, except for one key aspect - the Mets have the single worst bullpen in Major League Baseball. There's no other crap bullpen Alderson can cobble together that - in all likelihood - can be worse than this, statistically (by a long way) the very bottom of a very deep barrel. So he can and should make moves - a bunch of them, changing out at least 3 slots in the pen as soon as possible.

                              Mets' chances at post-season - I dunno, 10-15% - used to be higher? But given how this fan base has suffered and given the life this year's team has somehow put back in (in reality based on two big starters, in my view) it's malpractice not to try. All this "mortgage the future" stuff is mere mid-direction and sloganeering. The future is mere theory, especially when it hinges on a couple of young arms. And honestly, outside of the Wheeler acquition, how is Sandy Alderson "building for the future?" I simply don't see any building going on at all.

                              One thing I'd add: Alderson should order Collins to play Valdespin in the outfield for the rest of the season. All three slots.
                              He isnt building for the future. He was actually sent here as an operative for the other 29 teams to undermine any growth and development of the organization. Alderson is engaging in "industrial espionage" by his actions.

                              I am starting to see your point now Strawman. He is obviously an evil force that must be reckoned with. I just hope we all survive this holocaust type reign of terror.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                                I actually agree with this analysis, except for one key aspect - the Mets have the single worst bullpen in Major League Baseball. There's no other crap bullpen Alderson can cobble together that - in all likelihood - can be worse than this, statistically (by a long way) the very bottom of a very deep barrel. So he can and should make moves - a bunch of them, changing out at least 3 slots in the pen as soon as possible.

                                Mets' chances at post-season - I dunno, 10-15% - used to be higher? But given how this fan base has suffered and given the life this year's team has somehow put back in (in reality based on two big starters, in my view) it's malpractice not to try. All this "mortgage the future" stuff is mere mid-direction and sloganeering. The future is mere theory, especially when it hinges on a couple of young arms. And honestly, outside of the Wheeler acquition, how is Sandy Alderson "building for the future?" I simply don't see any building going on at all.

                                One thing I'd add: Alderson should order Collins to play Valdespin in the outfield for the rest of the season. All three slots.
                                Since I'm the one who wrote they should not mortgage the future for short term gain I need to ask you some questions. Am I engaging in misdirection and sloganeering? For whom am I misdirecting and for what gain? My own gain or someone else's gain? Tell me, I need to know

                                If I understand correctly you are willing to:

                                Trade off young prospects and/or guys with potential who are under team control for a few or more years

                                In order to:

                                Get a 65 game rental of some mediocre short relievers to go on a playoff push you admit has a 85% to 90% of failure.

                                So what will you say in 2013?

                                Comment

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