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  • Alderson should get a pass for everything that's happened since he became GM.

    That's basically the argument by some here. I totally reject that argument. He's just one lousy baseball executive, period. I happen to agree with trepye - no shocker.

    That ain't trolling - it's merely an opinion, backed up by a little thing called the Mets W-L record.

    This doesn't excuse the Wilpons in any way - rather, it compounds the Wilpons.
    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
      Alderson should get a pass for everything that's happened since he became GM.

      That's basically the argument by some here. I totally reject that argument. He's just one lousy baseball executive, period. I happen to agree with trepye - no shocker.

      That ain't trolling - it's merely an opinion, backed up by a little thing called the Mets W-L record.

      This doesn't excuse the Wilpons in any way - rather, it compounds the Wilpons.
      As you claiming that with another GM, under this ownership, the Mets would be winners?

      Comment


      • -+
        Originally posted by trepye View Post
        He advised ownership not to sign Reyes, he was so unethusiastic about negotiating with him he came out with his degrading "box of chocolates" comment.

        He babbled about how the walls where so deep since the moment he got here. There is a bunch of direct quotes delinieating that the Wilpons wanted a big pitchers ballpark but he dissuaded them out of their own beliefs. I still remember him saying how a smaller ballpark would help the team and how fans just wanna see HR's. Uh.... no. The visitors dumped more balls in these new dead zones; specially in right center and right. And another steady decline in attendace has taken place in 2012 (buyed by much reasonably priced tix prices).

        And yes, you're right, bullpens are a crapshoot; so I guess despite the fact that we havent seen a bullpen so bad since the days of Dough "Gasonality" Henry I should give him a pass on that (but it wouldve been nice to at least get ONE decent reliever out all the crap he threw out there).
        Originally posted by Strawman View Post
        Alderson should get a pass for everything that's happened since he became GM.

        That's basically the argument by some here. I totally reject that argument. He's just one lousy baseball executive, period. I happen to agree with trepye - no shocker.

        That ain't trolling - it's merely an opinion, backed up by a little thing called the Mets W-L record.

        This doesn't excuse the Wilpons in any way - rather, it compounds the Wilpons.
        First off I am glad you guys found eachother. Maybe we can get Milla to pipe in some Barry White for you two.

        Ok -- The walls were too deep. The park sucked...its still not great but the park needed serious alterations, and in my opinion it still does. It shouldnt have taken Alderson for you to know that. He also never said "fans just want to see home runs". He stated that home runs were important etc, but not what you said.

        "Alderson advised ownership not to sign Reyes". So let me ask you something...you seem to know more than the rest of us to do.. If Alderson advised that he should be signed do you think Wilpon pays him 106million? I'll give you a minute to think about it......... Ok..the answer is no. They are in a tear down mode right now...not in a spend mode. How you two dont get it I will never understand.

        Trepye you said something in another post about the Pagan/Torres trade which really tells me all I need to know. You said you gave the trade a chance, but it didnt work out....so now your criticizing it. I am paraphrasing, but you get the point. It must be awesome to sit on a perch and wait for things to succeed or fail before you put your two cents in. Where was your outrage WHEN the trade was made? Didnt see much from you on the trade.

        You see in my opinion, and what most fans do is evaluate a trade at the point it is made. Then they were either right or wrong on their initial thinking. Not you...you wait 6 months and then bash it. It must be great to sit in that seat.

        I am not saying Alderson is a great GM (although given the resources I believe he can be a very good GM). What I am saying is that he basically cant be graded because he wasnt sent here to build a winner...he was sent here so Wilpon can continue to own the team. If Alderson was given a 200m dollar payroll and these were the results then bash away, but you know he is not in that situation.

        I'll see what I can do about the Barry White thing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
          -+



          First off I am glad you guys found eachother. Maybe we can get Milla to pipe in some Barry White for you two.

          Ok -- The walls were too deep. The park sucked...its still not great but the park needed serious alterations, and in my opinion it still does. It shouldnt have taken Alderson for you to know that. He also never said "fans just want to see home runs". He stated that home runs were important etc, but not what you said.

          "Alderson advised ownership not to sign Reyes". So let me ask you something...you seem to know more than the rest of us to do.. If Alderson advised that he should be signed do you think Wilpon pays him 106million? I'll give you a minute to think about it......... Ok..the answer is no. They are in a tear down mode right now...not in a spend mode. How you two dont get it I will never understand.

          Trepye you said something in another post about the Pagan/Torres trade which really tells me all I need to know. You said you gave the trade a chance, but it didnt work out....so now your criticizing it. I am paraphrasing, but you get the point. It must be awesome to sit on a perch and wait for things to succeed or fail before you put your two cents in. Where was your outrage WHEN the trade was made? Didnt see much from you on the trade.

          You see in my opinion, and what most fans do is evaluate a trade at the point it is made. Then they were either right or wrong on their initial thinking. Not you...you wait 6 months and then bash it. It must be great to sit in that seat.

          I am not saying Alderson is a great GM (although given the resources I believe he can be a very good GM). What I am saying is that he basically cant be graded because he wasnt sent here to build a winner...he was sent here so Wilpon can continue to own the team. If Alderson was given a 200m dollar payroll and these were the results then bash away, but you know he is not in that situation.

          I'll see what I can do about the Barry White thing

          You hit this one out of the park......you can put in on the board...YESSSSSS ! Mercy !

          Sandy won't be allowed to do anything meaningful to ADD to the team until Bay and Santana are off the payroll. (and if we could go back through the pages here and look at the crystal ball....when the Mets chose to sign Ollie at 3 yrs for $36 million instead of Derrick Lowe at 4yrs for $60 million, I jumped all over Omar and there were a lot of folks here jumping on me ! Now that both contracts are over..and Lowe is still in the majors....over the 4 yrs Lowe had 49 wins and Ollie had exactly 3 ! I also questioned whether any pitcher was worth over $20 million a year when they handed the keys to Ft Knox to Santana; again I was ripped with people saying he was 'a beast' which I admit he was an ace. I think I was right back then, as Johan has won only 46 games over 5 seasons. yes, I know he was hurt, but that is part of giving pitchers these contracts. But I admit I did not complain at all about signing Jason Bay so I have to take that hit !!!!)

          Comment


          • Interesting, I was unaware that Omar had the option between Ollie and Derrick at the time of that deal. I must've been asleep at the switch, but I too would've easily opted for Lowe, especially given the extra year. Although, as you say, there's always the chance of underperforming or injuries when giving pitchers long-term or big-money contracts, I definitely would've, given the money and the option, chosen Lowe. In fact, not even being aware of that option, I was dead set against the Pérez deal when it happened, and I still consider it Omar's worst moment. In fact, I would've been against even a Niese-type contract for Ollie.

            As for Bay, no one, and I mean no one, could've expected him to put on a Mets uniform and simultaneously lose his moxie. I still feel that was a good signing when it was made, and I feel bad for Bay, especially since he hustles harder than virtually anyone else on the team. But do I feel another team would take him off our hands, even if the Mets eat part of his contract? I'm undecided. ...although with 29 other teams out there, I think there's bound to be one that would take him at a discount. Either way, I do think he needs to go. He's proven by now he's not gonna help the Mets to the postseason.

            Getting back to Alderson for a moment, imho, there are only two half-mistakes I think he's made as Mets GM. First, I think Reyes should've been traded instead of held onto until free agency. But the Wilpons were so intent to put butts in the seats in 2011 while he ran for the batting title, they totally cared not that they could've easily gotten a bounty of talented players for him had he been traded. So, as Pauly pointed out, even the Reyes thing can't be put on Sandy's shoulders, since it was the Wilpons who insisted on keeping him through the 2011 season.

            The only other thing I'm still concerned about is Zack Wheeler. I realize there's a lot of hype surrounding him, but pitchers are always a gamble. Losing Beltrán was, imho, a mistake. I thought it then, and I still think Wheeler could've been gotten for one or two (or three) other players.

            I refuse, though, to put the bullpen on Alderson's shoulders. There was no reason to believe that Ramón Ramírez would not continue his career-long successful ways (nor that Torres would hit .220). I still think he and Rauch should be brought back next season, although I have a feeling neither will return.

            I also agree with Pauly about the ballpark's dimensions. First, they needed to be changed to be a bit more fair to batters. It's still a pitcher's park, but at least now a home-run ball actually becomes a home run. And second, I repeat, the dimension changes were primarily in the hands of the owners and CitiBank. As Pauly said, the park is still not perfect, and can probably use one or two more alterations, but as I know it, Sandy had no final say on the dimension changes. At very least, it'll never be a Bronx bandbox.

            Sorry to be so longwinded. Excuse me now so I can check my vast music collection for just the right Barry White songs.
            Put it in the books.

            Comment


            • In the words of the great Barry White, to the three Alderson apologists who posted above, "Sandy" - he's their pal! - is their first, their last, their everything.

              Clearly, he's a fantastic success and the only downside is those snarling Wilpons - he's everything we could want in a GM.

              PS - the ballpark dimensions were better before these rickety temporary fences were installed, and the place looked better as well. I won't republish the stats from other threads, but the dimension theory on both home team offense and defense has been thoroughly demolished. Oh the decision on the dimensions was Alderson's - this was said many times when the changes were announced.

              I don't know, I don't know, I don't know why ... but you guys can't seem to get enough of this General Manager.
              Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

              Comment


              • I've always been in favor of keeping the original dimensions, but I'm fine with either or.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                  ...Oh the decision on the dimensions was Alderson's - this was said many times when the changes were announced.
                  I was unaware of that.

                  I don't know, I don't know, I don't know why ... but you guys can't seem to get enough of this General Manager.
                  I think it's a simple case of when one side is so, so, soooo anti, the other side needs to put some balance on the line. I certainly don't think Alderson's the best GM in the world, but since you seem to think he's down there in the Seventh Ring of Dante's Hell, there needs to be someone sitting on the other side of the see-saw.
                  Put it in the books.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by milladrive View Post
                    I was unaware of that.



                    I think it's a simple case of when one side is so, so, soooo anti, the other side needs to put some balance on the line. I certainly don't think Alderson's the best GM in the world, but since you seem to think he's down there in the Seventh Ring of Dante's Hell, there needs to be someone sitting on the other side of the see-saw.
                    I don't think he's an evil guy, or horrible on a personal level. I just think he's a terrible GM - wrong guy for this team, this town, this time. We won't move on and improve as a franchise till he's gone, frankly. Ownership's not changing, as much as we'd wish for it. So the Mets need a dynamic, dealing executive scrambling to make this team better.
                    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                      I don't think he's an evil guy, or horrible on a personal level. I just think he's a terrible GM - wrong guy for this team, this town, this time. We won't move on and improve as a franchise till he's gone, frankly. Ownership's not changing, as much as we'd wish for it. So the Mets need a dynamic, dealing executive scrambling to make this team better.
                      Please show us the GM that is going to get Fred and Jeff to agree to a $250 million dollar contract. Alderson's hands are tied, probably due to Bay and Santana's contracts, not to mention Castillo, Ollie and K-Roid. The Wilpons have been burned on these huge contracts and may not have the deep pockets to allow any GM to sign huge contracts.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                        I don't think he's an evil guy, or horrible on a personal level. I just think he's a terrible GM - wrong guy for this team, this town, this time. We won't move on and improve as a franchise till he's gone, frankly. Ownership's not changing, as much as we'd wish for it. So the Mets need a dynamic, dealing executive scrambling to make this team better.
                        Ok stick with that line of thinking. He is the wrong guy for this team at this time. Here is the problem that YOUR going to have......there is not a GM on this earth that is the RIGHT guy for the job right now. There is nobody that is going to turn this around with out Wilpon signing off.

                        So I agree. Alderson is not the right guy.......you think because he stinks........I think because the right guy doesnt exist.

                        So you and your little buddy come on here and bash Alderson when the fact is you would be bashing any GM in my opinion. A good job is impossible to do at this juncture.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
                          Please show us the GM that is going to get Fred and Jeff to agree to a $250 million dollar contract. Alderson's hands are tied, probably due to Bay and Santana's contracts, not to mention Castillo, Ollie and K-Roid. The Wilpons have been burned on these huge contracts and may not have the deep pockets to allow any GM to sign huge contracts.
                          Here are 5 I'd take over Alderson to try and rebuild the Mets with a sub-$100M payroll - if that's necessary from ownership.

                          1. Jon Daniels
                          2. Dave Dombrowski
                          3. Brian Sabean
                          4. Dayton Moore
                          5. Andrew Friedman

                          In no particular order...every one an easy choice. As is Billy Beane - as is Brian Cashman, btw.

                          And mandrake, in other thread you posted a link to a great post about the state of the Mets - here's a crucial excerpt that is - to me - pitch perfect:

                          Are the Mets the worst franchise in baseball? Between Bernie Madoff and Jason Bay, there’s a lot of bad karma in Queens. And since the team can’t fire Fred or Jeff Wilpon, should Sandy Alderson hit the road?

                          After the Omar Minaya ship sank, aided by Ollie Perez, Luis Castillo, and Mike Tyson (AKA Tony Bernazard), the Mets promised New York a New Day, with Alderson’s stability and nobility leading the way.

                          Alderson’s answer to the problem was to drown the Mets in brain cells, in Ivy League intelligence, hiring J.P. Riccardi and Paul DePodesta to form a formidable think tank to flush the rancid past from Flushing.

                          How’s that going? There hasn’t been one solid signing over the last two years to which Mets fans can hitch their wagons and say, “Hey, that’s gonna be big in a year or two.” And there’s no excuse for the inertia in player development, free agency, or the standings. You can’t play the rebuilding card in New York without at least flashing a little cash or plucking some stud from a fertile farm system.
                          Sorry fellas, I'm far from the only long-term Mets fan who thinks Alderson is an energy-challenged disaster for this franchise.
                          Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                            Here are 5 I'd take over Alderson to try and rebuild the Mets with a sub-$100M payroll - if that's necessary from ownership.

                            1. Jon Daniels
                            2. Dave Dombrowski
                            3. Brian Sabean
                            4. Dayton Moore
                            5. Andrew Friedman

                            In no particular order...every one an easy choice. As is Billy Beane - as is Brian Cashman, btw.

                            And mandrake, in other thread you posted a link to a great post about the state of the Mets - here's a crucial excerpt that is - to me - pitch perfect:



                            Sorry fellas, I'm far from the only long-term Mets fan who thinks Alderson is an energy-challenged disaster for this franchise.
                            Moore, Sabean, and Dombrowski are consistently ranked as bottom-tier general managers. That list is absolutely pitiful. Moore and Sabean are absolutely crucified by their respective fanbase's on a daily basis. Dombrowski hasn't done much other than sign Fielder to an outrageous deal. Plus, Dombrowski has a ton of money to work with, and Alderson doesn't. That list was terrible.

                            The list should be:

                            1. Andrew Friedman
                            2. Alex Anthopoulos
                            3. Theo Epstein
                            4. Jon Daniels
                            Last edited by CokeMachineGlow; 10-18-2012, 05:23 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
                              Dombrowski hasn't done much other than sign Fielder to an outrageous deal.
                              Didnt he aquire through trade Ordonez, Cabrera, Austin Jackson and Max Scherzer? He has had a hand in some awesome trades. And created a consistent winning product with (gasp!) a field that has fences at about 430+ at its deepest points.
                              Last edited by trepye; 10-18-2012, 09:43 AM.
                              :lightbulb:Definition of a homerun: When the baseball gets hit to a DISTANCE that the fielder cannot get it into homeplate before the batter rounds the bases.

                              Associated Press -- Citi Field's smaller dimensions helped opponents more than the New York Mets.
                              Thanks Sandy Alderson.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                                ...Sorry fellas, I'm far from the only long-term Mets fan who thinks Alderson is an energy-challenged disaster for this franchise.
                                Energy-challenged is a good point. I heard Alderson interviewed by Cohen/Darling/Hernandez during the last homestand. This was his chance to apologize to Mets fans for charging Major League prices and fielding a AAA team, and to assure us that changes were going to be made. But I didn't really detect any sense of urgency in his remarks, any indication that things would be getting better. I don't know what the plan is going forward, but I hope there is one.
                                They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

                                Comment

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