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  • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    To recap on the "new" fences:

    1. They helped the opponents score more runs.

    2. Dickey didn't like it and said so.

    3. Wright wasn't affected in any real way.

    4. The Mets didn't hit better.

    5. Argument about free agents not "wanting to come to Citi" not valid - because we don't sign any.

    6. They removed a home-field advantage to conform to some arbitrary ideal of "fairness"

    7. They spoiled the design of the stadium (at least in LF, where a rickety temporary scaffolding passes for a "party deck")

    8. They have just as many - if not more - hideous ads on them

    Seems like a good deal for our GM!
    1) Opponents score more runs because opponents are better

    2) Who cares what Dickey likes? Dickey would like the fences 500ft...who cares

    3) Erroneous. Wright had a much better season than in 09 10 and 11 - If I have to explain the whole picture again I will. Its more than home/road splits

    4) The Mets didnt hit better because they had worse hitters

    5) Very valid...Once ownership goes away hopefully we can sign a few

    6) They dont have a homefield advanatage because other teams are just better.

    7) Not interested

    8) Less interested

    Comment


    • ^ Still no data. Just hollow opinonating.
      :lightbulb:Definition of a homerun: When the baseball gets hit to a DISTANCE that the fielder cannot get it into homeplate before the batter rounds the bases.

      Associated Press -- Citi Field's smaller dimensions helped opponents more than the New York Mets.
      Thanks Sandy Alderson.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by trepye View Post
        ^ Still no data. Just hollow opinonating.
        What data do you need?

        Other teams are better
        We havent signed a big hitter after the 2009 season. Bay signed before the 2009 season..that worked out well
        The Met hitters are worse than their opponents hitters
        Home field advantage is only as good as the team. ( Is anyone afraid to go to Houston because they have home field advantage) Wake up
        Wright had his best season since 2008. - Again if you need me to explain it to you as to why this happened....I will, but I am going to charge for the lesson.

        So what is my opinion here? These are plain simple facts. The data is the numbers. Either individual stats or wins and losses.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
          What data do you need?
          Accurate ones...

          Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
          Wright had his best season since 2008. So what is my opinion here? These are plain simple facts. The data is the numbers. Either individual stats or wins and losses.
          WRONG

          Overall AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
          2010
          Total 587 87 166 36 3 29 103 69 2 161 19 11 .283 .354 .503 .857
          2012
          Total 581 91 178 41 2 21 93 81 3 112 15 10 .306 .391 .492 .883


          Based on his primary role as run producer Wright had more higher SLG, more RBI's and HR's in 2010. Oh, BTW the Mets were13 games above 0.500 at home that year too.
          Last edited by trepye; 10-24-2012, 08:49 AM.
          :lightbulb:Definition of a homerun: When the baseball gets hit to a DISTANCE that the fielder cannot get it into homeplate before the batter rounds the bases.

          Associated Press -- Citi Field's smaller dimensions helped opponents more than the New York Mets.
          Thanks Sandy Alderson.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by trepye View Post
            ^ Still no data. Just hollow opinonating.
            Umm, I think...

            Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
            1) Opponents score more runs because opponents are better

            *snip*

            6) They dont have a homefield advanatage because other teams are just better.
            ...these are not opinions, much less "hollow." No matter what ballpark in which a team plays another team, the better team will usually emerge trumphant. The Mets are currently not a good team, so they'll lose more games than they win, regardless of where they play. It's as simple as that.

            Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
            What data do you need?

            Other teams are better
            We havent signed a big hitter after the 2009 season. Bay signed before the 2009 season..that worked out well
            The Met hitters are worse than their opponents hitters
            Home field advantage is only as good as the team. ( Is anyone afraid to go to Houston because they have home field advantage) Wake up
            Wright had his best season since 2008. - Again if you need me to explain it to you as to why this happened....I will, but I am going to charge for the lesson.

            So what is my opinion here? These are plain simple facts. The data is the numbers. Either individual stats or wins and losses.
            Case in point.

            ---------------

            Anyway, I thought the hint was somewhat clear when I made a whole post using the link to the Citi Field thread in the Ballparks forum. I guess that hint wasn't bold enough. I'll make it a bit more clear. The place to discuss Citi Field is in the Citi Field thread in the Ballparks forum.
            Last edited by milladrive; 10-24-2012, 11:40 AM. Reason: Removed OPS list
            Put it in the books.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by trepye View Post

              Accurate ones...



              WRONG

              Overall AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
              2010
              Total 587 87 166 36 3 29 103 69 2 161 19 11 .283 .354 .503 .857
              2012
              Total 581 91 178 41 2 21 93 81 3 112 15 10 .306 .391 .492 .883


              Based on his primary role as run producer Wright had more higher SLG, more RBI's and HR's in 2010. Oh, BTW the Mets were13 games above 0.500 at home that year too.
              We have a little different view on a better year then. His BA/OBP were higher. His Slugging was .011 lower in 2012 than in 2010. Not enough to make me blink. He struck out 40 times less in 2012, and walked 12 times more. He had 10 more rbi's in 2010 which is lineup dependant anyway. As I hope you know.

              Despite 8 less homers in 2012 Wright has a higher OPS+ in 2012, and a 2 1/2 times higher WAR.

              Given the two seasons - I would take Wrights 2012 season 10 times out of 10. Here is why:


              Before the fences were moved Wright was trying to pull every ball he saw to homer. So yes he did hit 29 homers, but at what expense. His AVG dropped as did his OBP. Add in the fact that he struck out 161 times because he was committing so early in his swing that he was vulnerable to anything that broke over the outside part of the plate.

              Now fast forward to 2012. He hit 8 less homers...very true, but his approach was much more productive. He was able to wait longer on pitches. If you watched the games you can see this. He waited longer because he wasnt as fearful of hitting the ball to RCF for a long out. Waiting longer decreased his strike outs. Now he still did hit some long outs to RCF but he seemingly never waivered to his credit.

              If you cant see this...than I am sorry.


              As far as the home record. This team has no home field advantage. I dont believe for one second that in the past 4 years a team said "oh no we have to play the Mets at Citi Field where they are really good".

              But you know what I really LOVE -- is when someone comes on here and gives half a Baloney story to make themselves right. For instance on this home/road issue. You very proudly told me they were 13 games over in 2010. What you failed to tell me is that they were 13 games under in 2011, and 1 game over in 2009. So in 4 years of Citi

              2009 - +1
              2010 +13
              2011 -13 (silly rabbit)
              2012 -9

              So where is the excuse in 2011? Where was the home field advantage in 2011 with your walls half way to Long Island?

              To quote Mike Tyson:

              "How dare you challenge me with your primitive skills"
              Last edited by Paulypal; 10-24-2012, 06:24 PM.

              Comment


              • A Review of the General Manager: Sandy Alderson
                My top 10 players:

                1. Babe Ruth
                2. Barry Bonds
                3. Ty Cobb
                4. Ted Williams
                5. Willie Mays
                6. Alex Rodriguez
                7. Hank Aaron
                8. Honus Wagner
                9. Lou Gehrig
                10. Mickey Mantle

                Comment


                • One area where Alderson is not in a great position is the David Wright contract - I have to admit that he'll be ripped either way - if he fails to sign Wright long term, or if he overpays - and those are the only two choices on the table, Mets fans.

                  Strategically, once you let Reyes walk, you're giving up on the next 3-5 years anyway, so trading Wright makes more sense from 30,000 feet. But there are tickets to the sell and a fan base to appease. (As a fan, of course I want to see Wright back at 3B).
                  Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                    One area where Alderson is not in a great position is the David Wright contract - I have to admit that he'll be ripped either way - if he fails to sign Wright long term, or if he overpays - and those are the only two choices on the table, Mets fans.

                    Strategically, once you let Reyes walk, you're giving up on the next 3-5 years anyway, so trading Wright makes more sense from 30,000 feet. But there are tickets to the sell and a fan base to appease. (As a fan, of course I want to see Wright back at 3B).
                    I agree. I am on the fence about signing Wright. As much as I want him here, but to what end? Its like putting lipstick on a pig. Wright is a piece of the puzzle but what other pieces are being added? Does signing Wright eliminate signing the other pieces?

                    I realize you have to start somewhere but I think starting with a 100m+ contract may be the wrong way to go. Especially if the contract handcuffs the organization from making another move.

                    I know there are a lot of fans that go by the "home grown" & "face of the franchise" theory, which is nice, but in this case it may not be reality.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                      I agree. I am on the fence about signing Wright. As much as I want him here, but to what end? Its like putting lipstick on a pig. Wright is a piece of the puzzle but what other pieces are being added? Does signing Wright eliminate signing the other pieces?

                      I realize you have to start somewhere but I think starting with a 100m+ contract may be the wrong way to go. Especially if the contract handcuffs the organization from making another move.

                      I know there are a lot of fans that go by the "home grown" & "face of the franchise" theory, which is nice, but in this case it may not be reality.
                      I think signing Wright will hamper any other signings this year but once Bay and Santanas contracts are up there should be no excuses for not persuing free agents next year. I think they have to figure out what they can get for Wright before signing him and if they do sign him his contract starts in 2014 which is when they will have almost 50 million less in payroll. If they do not sign Wright who is out there that they can sign for 18 million who will make them better? Or maybe 2 players for 9mil each?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                        I think signing Wright will hamper any other signings this year but once Bay and Santanas contracts are up there should be no excuses for not persuing free agents next year. I think they have to figure out what they can get for Wright before signing him and if they do sign him his contract starts in 2014 which is when they will have almost 50 million less in payroll. If they do not sign Wright who is out there that they can sign for 18 million who will make them better? Or maybe 2 players for 9mil each?
                        The more I think about it the less sense it makes for the Mets to spend that money on Wright, and it makes even less sense for Wright to sign here. I really like Wright, but at this point in the Met history it just doesnt make sense to sign a 100m+ player. I am sure the Mets will try to sign him to appease the fans because its an attendance move.....not a good baseball move. In my opinion. Is Wright worth more to the Mets future by trading him for several high level prospects, or by signing him to 100m+ contract and hoping that the Wilpons can QUICKLY build a team around a 30 year old player (by quickly I mean 2-3 years while Wright is still in his prime)?

                        Honestly the more I type the less sense signing Wright makes to me.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                          The more I think about it the less sense it makes for the Mets to spend that money on Wright, and it makes even less sense for Wright to sign here. I really like Wright, but at this point in the Met history it just doesnt make sense to sign a 100m+ player. I am sure the Mets will try to sign him to appease the fans because its an attendance move.....not a good baseball move. In my opinion. Is Wright worth more to the Mets future by trading him for several high level prospects, or by signing him to 100m+ contract and hoping that the Wilpons can QUICKLY build a team around a 30 year old player (by quickly I mean 2-3 years while Wright is still in his prime)?

                          Honestly the more I type the less sense signing Wright makes to me.
                          You make perfectly good sense. Your line of thinking is also for what Alderson and his front office staff have histories of with other teams they have been involved in. The key here is how much of a revolt from the fans do they expect if they do not sign Wright. It remains to be seen if they (including the Wilpons) truly believe moneyball can be used to run a franchise in the NYC area. This should be very interesting to see how it plays out.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                            You make perfectly good sense. Your line of thinking is also for what Alderson and his front office staff have histories of with other teams they have been involved in. The key here is how much of a revolt from the fans do they expect if they do not sign Wright. It remains to be seen if they (including the Wilpons) truly believe moneyball can be used to run a franchise in the NYC area. This should be very interesting to see how it plays out.
                            I dont even think its a matter of Moneyball. Honestly Moneyball has come and gone in my opinion. With the metrics of evaluating players the cat is out of the bag. When Beane did it in the early 2000's he was the only one. Once that framework was out there they all jumped on it.

                            I think its a matter of if it makes sense or not, and quite honestly.....it doesnt. The fans may revolt..true. Alderson will take the hit....true, but its a good baseball move.

                            I get that Wright has become part of the Met culture and the face of the franchise, and if we cant keep the face of the franchise then we are all going to hell type of thinking. I get it.

                            Here is the question I ask myself:

                            If I owned and GM'd the Mets myself starting today would I sign Wright. The answer is no.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                              I dont even think its a matter of Moneyball. Honestly Moneyball has come and gone in my opinion. With the metrics of evaluating players the cat is out of the bag. When Beane did it in the early 2000's he was the only one. Once that framework was out there they all jumped on it.

                              I think its a matter of if it makes sense or not, and quite honestly.....it doesnt. The fans may revolt..true. Alderson will take the hit....true, but its a good baseball move.

                              I get that Wright has become part of the Met culture and the face of the franchise, and if we cant keep the face of the franchise then we are all going to hell type of thinking. I get it.

                              Here is the question I ask myself:

                              If I owned and GM'd the Mets myself starting today would I sign Wright. The answer is no.
                              I guess I did not use the correct term when I said "Moneyball". I meant to say we will find out if the Mets are committed to drafting, developing and locking up their talent in the early years of their careers and then trading them for more young talent to teams that are willing to take on large salary for players they think can help them in the beginning of there contracts but may be overpaid towards the end of the long term deal. That is the plan, lets see if they stick to it. If they do trade Wright, it will validate that they are committed to "staying the course" and to logical fans will demonstrate they are moving (however slowly) to rebuilding this team into a "long term" winning and quality franchise. The problem is, not to many fans think logically. Again tough decision and I will be genuinely sad to see Wright go. The reason I felt bad about Jose going was because they didn't get anything for him. But then again, he also got hurt right at the trade deadline and they could not have gotten anything for him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                                I guess I did not use the correct term when I said "Moneyball". I meant to say we will find out if the Mets are committed to drafting, developing and locking up their talent in the early years of their careers and then trading them for more young talent to teams that are willing to take on large salary for players they think can help them in the beginning of there contracts but may be overpaid towards the end of the long term deal. That is the plan, lets see if they stick to it. If they do trade Wright, it will validate that they are committed to "staying the course" and to logical fans will demonstrate they are moving (however slowly) to rebuilding this team into a "long term" winning and quality franchise. The problem is, not to many fans think logically. Again tough decision and I will be genuinely sad to see Wright go. The reason I felt bad about Jose going was because they didn't get anything for him. But then again, he also got hurt right at the trade deadline and they could not have gotten anything for him.
                                What I would really like to see is the Mets draft and develop players. Real quality players, not just hype. No Generation K's...or the next Tom Seaver, or Ty Cobb, Ted Williams (or whoever else they threw at us). Legit quality. Make some sensible trades. Then when the time is right sign the big name (s) to put the team over the top, and to lead the team.

                                At the same time I dont want a Tampa Bay, or Kansas City situation that when the player is FA eligible he is gone. I want the Mets to be able to sign that player long term so we really start to develop some team history. Right now the team history is pathetic. For a team that 50 years old its almost a joke. Right now signing a player to the type of contract Wright makes no sense.

                                The team is going no where. So I think developing from the ground up at this point is the way to go. For the last 4 years the team has chased its own tail and it has gone no where. Fans have been given a serious dose of false hope. This type of plan can take some time, but look at all the time and energy that was wasted in the past 4 seasons.
                                Last edited by Paulypal; 11-02-2012, 01:40 PM.

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