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  • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
    All true statements. I will think a fair assessment of Alderson will be his total tenure as GM with the Mets. Lets see what happens this offseason, How his draftpicks/trades for young talent works out in a few years, not today, and how honest he is that he has payroll to spend this offseason. If he is given nothing to work with he will go down as a sacrificial lamb for the Wilpons, but that has not been proven yet. I will never feel bad for him though. He has been paid well and will almost certainly wind up with a nice position with MLB. You can hold him accountable for his time with the A's though. They were known for doing more with less but at some point you need to be competitive in ML salary because nobody can always outsmart the competition.
    I agree with you but I have some thoughts about his tenure with the A's:

    When a team doesnt spend like the A's just dont spend they tend to go through cycles of being competitive for a while then they fall off for a while. This seems to be true of every team that doesnt spend not named Tampa Bay.


    Also - I dont see think we will ever gauge how good he could have been as GM of the Mets. I honestly dont think he will be here when the Wilpons open up the check book. They will go get another Omar type. Basically he was sent here (probably kicking and screaming by Selig) against his will or as a favor at the very least to Selig for future considerations.

    Because the Mets have been bottom of the barrel, - because Sandy was put in a position to lie and take bullets for the Wilscums, -because he doesnt come across very well -- he will not be rememered in a good light. Rightfully so I might add. You get judged on results....on the surface anyway. For me instead of just saying he sucks as the GM I force myself to look deeper at the work conditions before I pass judgement. This is why I have an "incomplete" for Alderson.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 10-30-2013, 09:26 AM.

    Comment


    • Sandy Alderson was not always dumpster diving for the Wliponzi's. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6460/index.htm

      September 10, 1990 The Rich Get Richer
      The Oakland A's sent a shudder through the league by landing Willie McGee and Harold Baines

      http://www.athleticsnation.com/2013/...rson-and-beane

      Fortunately, Alderson had an advantage in his battle to impose order: Wally Haas had lots of dough and was willing to spend it on the A’s.

      Wally Haas operated the team as a community entertainment trust, and he was prepared to subsidize the team’s financial losses like the philanthropist he was. During most of Alderson’s era, the A’s were never starved for player payroll. Indeed, in 1991, the A’s had the highest payroll in baseball.

      When the free spending Haas sold the team.... In 1995, when the A’s ownership changed from the Haas family to Steve Schott and Ken Hofmann, so when Sandy was allowed to spend in the 1988-1990 era, the A's won with a high payroll.

      In 1993 they finished about 25 games behind the Chisox, and then the strike came, and then Haas sold the team, and the A's kept losing , and Sandy had to cut payroll. And he couldn't compete anymore.


      Now I really think Strawman was right all along. Sandy was a hatchet man given to Fred by Bud to stop the Madoff bleeding and to try to save the franchise. Now that Bud is retiring, maybe Sandy becomes the next commish?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
        Sandy Alderson was not always dumpster diving for the Wliponzi's. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6460/index.htm

        September 10, 1990 The Rich Get Richer
        The Oakland A's sent a shudder through the league by landing Willie McGee and Harold Baines

        http://www.athleticsnation.com/2013/...rson-and-beane

        Fortunately, Alderson had an advantage in his battle to impose order: Wally Haas had lots of dough and was willing to spend it on the A’s.

        Wally Haas operated the team as a community entertainment trust, and he was prepared to subsidize the team’s financial losses like the philanthropist he was. During most of Alderson’s era, the A’s were never starved for player payroll. Indeed, in 1991, the A’s had the highest payroll in baseball.

        When the free spending Haas sold the team.... In 1995, when the A’s ownership changed from the Haas family to Steve Schott and Ken Hofmann, so when Sandy was allowed to spend in the 1988-1990 era, the A's won with a high payroll.

        In 1993 they finished about 25 games behind the Chisox, and then the strike came, and then Haas sold the team, and the A's kept losing , and Sandy had to cut payroll. And he couldn't compete anymore.


        Now I really think Strawman was right all along. Sandy was a hatchet man given to Fred by Bud to stop the Madoff bleeding and to try to save the franchise. Now that Bud is retiring, maybe Sandy becomes the next commish?
        Yep, that's the way I saw it - and still see it.

        Plus, I think that we do have evidence of what kind of GM Alderson is, frankly. Could he do more with a bigger budget? To quote Pauly: "I have no clue."
        Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
          Sandy Alderson was not always dumpster diving for the Wliponzi's. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6460/index.htm

          September 10, 1990 The Rich Get Richer
          The Oakland A's sent a shudder through the league by landing Willie McGee and Harold Baines

          http://www.athleticsnation.com/2013/...rson-and-beane

          Fortunately, Alderson had an advantage in his battle to impose order: Wally Haas had lots of dough and was willing to spend it on the A’s.

          Wally Haas operated the team as a community entertainment trust, and he was prepared to subsidize the team’s financial losses like the philanthropist he was. During most of Alderson’s era, the A’s were never starved for player payroll. Indeed, in 1991, the A’s had the highest payroll in baseball.

          When the free spending Haas sold the team.... In 1995, when the A’s ownership changed from the Haas family to Steve Schott and Ken Hofmann, so when Sandy was allowed to spend in the 1988-1990 era, the A's won with a high payroll.

          In 1993 they finished about 25 games behind the Chisox, and then the strike came, and then Haas sold the team, and the A's kept losing , and Sandy had to cut payroll. And he couldn't compete anymore.


          Now I really think Strawman was right all along. Sandy was a hatchet man given to Fred by Bud to stop the Madoff bleeding and to try to save the franchise. Now that Bud is retiring, maybe Sandy becomes the next commish?
          Originally posted by Strawman View Post
          Yep, that's the way I saw it - and still see it.

          Plus, I think that we do have evidence of what kind of GM Alderson is, frankly. Could he do more with a bigger budget? To quote Pauly: "I have no clue."
          Pretty interesting and some pretty good stuff about Alderson that ....well we havent heard coincidentally from the same article. He was brought here to take bullets for the mess...this is not news. I think he can do a very good job given the resources......below supports that.

          Under Alderson, the A’s drafted phenomenally well (the Bash Brothers, Terry Steinbach, Walt Weiss, etc.) while acquiring some amazing talent (Tony LaRussa, Rickey Henderson, Dave Henderson, Bob Welch, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Stewart, etc.). As history notes, the A’s won four division titles in a row (1988-1991), three American League pennants, and one (sigh) World Series championship.

          Oh yeah, there was one other notable accomplishment by Alderson, perhaps his finest: In 1993, he promoted Billy Beane from advance scout to Assistant General Manager.

          The unusual pairing of Alderson and Beane had begun in 1990 when Beane walked off the playing field and asked Alderson to hire him as a scout. "I didn’t think there was much risk in making him an advance scout," Alderson recalled to Michael Lewis, "because I didn’t think an advance scout did anything." Three years later, Beane was officially Alderson’s right-hand man. I believe the five-year apprenticeship he served (1993-1998) gave him the foundation he needed for later success. But the experience may have stymied him, too.

          Other people are often, mistakenly, credited for things Alderson did. The movie, "Moneyball," suggested the Paul DePodesta character, Peter Brand, was responsible for focusing the A’s on statistical analysis. Not even close. It was Alderson. (Alderson was DePodesta before anyone ever heard of DePodesta.) It was Alderson, the credentialed outsider, who introduced Beane, the failed insider, to the Bill Jamesian world of analytics. And it was Alderson who imposed the ruthless, top-down, organizational hitting philosophy.

          To aid him in determining the most efficient way to hire baseball players, Alderson commissioned a pamphlet written by Eric Walker, a former aerospace engineer. In so many words, Walker stated the most important trait a baseball player could have is an ability not to make an out, since outs were in such limited supply. On-base percentage is just a measure of how well a hitter avoids outs.

          Walker said fielding mattered only five percent of the time. Pitchers were the most important factor in winning, along with hitters who could avoid making outs. Pitching was fairly valued by the market, but hitting, and particularly high OBP, was undervalued.

          In 1995, when the A’s ownership changed from the Haas family to Steve Schott and Ken Hofmann, Alderson unleashed his inner-Marine. He created an exacting, uniform system of training and evaluation for every level of the organization. He felt the system was the star. Improve the system and you improve the results on the field.

          It was Alderson who actively sought to diminish the status of the on-field manager. Lewis reported Alderson’s rhetorical question: "In what other business do you leave the fate of the organization to a middle manager?" He cut LaRussa some slack, in deference to his success and celebrity. Once LaRussa bolted for St. Louis, however, Alderson quickly stuffed the field manager genie back in the bottle. He hired Art Howe to implement the front office strategy on the field.

          (I have read several interviews in which LaRussa has disparaged the A’s under Beane for disrespecting the importance of the field manager. Tony, I have some news for you! Beane learned that from your old mate, Sandy Alderson! And here’s another shock for you: The "Moneyball" movie made up a lot of that conflict Beane supposedly had with Howe. Hollywood, Tony, is quite a bit less than meets the eye.)

          Comment


          • http://nypost.com/2013/10/30/mets-gm-jeff-wilpons-bold-remarks-were-off-the-cuff/

            Who is running the Mets? The owner? His son, the boy wonder? Or Sandy the GM? After Lil Jeff spoke his words of wisdom, we have Superstar Sandy (not to be confused with superstorm Sandy)

            Here is the whole NY Post article:

            The Mets aren’t ready to trade most of their team just yet.
            While there’s no doubt Jeff Wilpon was correct in pointing out the Mets have “definite deficiencies” on the roster heading into the offseason, general manager Sandy Alderson said Wednesday he believed the team’s COO was speaking “off the cuff” on Tuesday when he listed David Wright, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee and Zack Wheeler as the four players whose roles were solidified for 2014.
            “I think there are other guys who would qualify to be on equal stature,” Alderson said.
            He declined to come up with another list — that likely would include such players as Travis d’Arnaud and Bobby Parnell — but agreed with Wilpon considerable changes need to be made.
            “We won 74 games last year, so that’s a starting point,” Alderson said. “That suggests that improvements are necessary.”
            And while the GM echoed Wilpon’s sentiment he will be able to spend more freely in the coming months now that some of the team’s higher-priced players such as Johan Santana are gone, Alderson warned against expecting a spending spree.
            “Finances are always an issue, with every team,” Alderson said. “But, certainly, we have a lot more flexibility than we’ve had in the past.”
            Flexibility to use on a potentially long shopping list that could include, among other things, at least one outfielder, a shortstop and a starting pitcher.
            Whether that includes big-ticket items such as outfielder Shin-Soo Choo, a Scott Boras client, remains to be seen. Wilpon hinted a trade for a player with an expensive contract could also be a possibility, but Alderson didn’t want to speculate so early in the offseason.
            “We have much more room to maneuver than in recent years and I hope to take advantage of that maneuverability,” Alderson said.
            As Wilpon noted Tuesday, that could take some time, perhaps until the GM meetings next month or even the Winter Meetings, which don’t begin until Dec. 9.
            “We have to see how the market develops,” Alderson said. “We’ll know better what’s available at that point.”


            Finances are always an issue with every team? Tell that to the Red Sox with their $160 million payroll.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
              Who is running the Mets? The owner? His son, the boy wonder? Or Sandy the GM? After Lil Jeff spoke his words of wisdom, we have Superstar Sandy (not to be confused with superstorm Sandy)

              Here is the whole NY Post article:

              The Mets aren’t ready to trade most of their team just yet.
              While there’s no doubt Jeff Wilpon was correct in pointing out the Mets have “definite deficiencies” on the roster heading into the offseason, general manager Sandy Alderson said Wednesday he believed the team’s COO was speaking “off the cuff” on Tuesday when he listed David Wright, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee and Zack Wheeler as the four players whose roles were solidified for 2014.
              “I think there are other guys who would qualify to be on equal stature,” Alderson said.
              He declined to come up with another list — that likely would include such players as Travis d’Arnaud and Bobby Parnell — but agreed with Wilpon considerable changes need to be made.
              “We won 74 games last year, so that’s a starting point,” Alderson said. “That suggests that improvements are necessary.”
              And while the GM echoed Wilpon’s sentiment he will be able to spend more freely in the coming months now that some of the team’s higher-priced players such as Johan Santana are gone, Alderson warned against expecting a spending spree.
              “Finances are always an issue, with every team,” Alderson said. “But, certainly, we have a lot more flexibility than we’ve had in the past.”
              Flexibility to use on a potentially long shopping list that could include, among other things, at least one outfielder, a shortstop and a starting pitcher.
              Whether that includes big-ticket items such as outfielder Shin-Soo Choo, a Scott Boras client, remains to be seen. Wilpon hinted a trade for a player with an expensive contract could also be a possibility, but Alderson didn’t want to speculate so early in the offseason.
              “We have much more room to maneuver than in recent years and I hope to take advantage of that maneuverability,” Alderson said.
              As Wilpon noted Tuesday, that could take some time, perhaps until the GM meetings next month or even the Winter Meetings, which don’t begin until Dec. 9.
              “We have to see how the market develops,” Alderson said. “We’ll know better what’s available at that point.”


              Finances are always an issue with every team? Tell that to the Red Sox with their $160 million payroll.


              Red Sox 160mil in 2013 WS champs.
              Red Sox 175mil in 2012- last place
              All the Mets management needs to see is that to rationalize that spending more money doesn't guarantee anything (which every Met fan knows over the years). I'm more interested in Sandy's maneuverability as it relates to finances. The series is over the free agents can be signed starting about a week later?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
                Who is running the Mets? The owner? His son, the boy wonder? Or Sandy the GM? After Lil Jeff spoke his words of wisdom, we have Superstar Sandy (not to be confused with superstorm Sandy)

                Here is the whole NY Post article:

                The Mets aren’t ready to trade most of their team just yet.
                While there’s no doubt Jeff Wilpon was correct in pointing out the Mets have “definite deficiencies” on the roster heading into the offseason, general manager Sandy Alderson said Wednesday he believed the team’s COO was speaking “off the cuff” on Tuesday when he listed David Wright, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee and Zack Wheeler as the four players whose roles were solidified for 2014.
                “I think there are other guys who would qualify to be on equal stature,” Alderson said.
                He declined to come up with another list — that likely would include such players as Travis d’Arnaud and Bobby Parnell — but agreed with Wilpon considerable changes need to be made.
                “We won 74 games last year, so that’s a starting point,” Alderson said. “That suggests that improvements are necessary.”
                And while the GM echoed Wilpon’s sentiment he will be able to spend more freely in the coming months now that some of the team’s higher-priced players such as Johan Santana are gone, Alderson warned against expecting a spending spree.
                “Finances are always an issue, with every team,” Alderson said. “But, certainly, we have a lot more flexibility than we’ve had in the past.”
                Flexibility to use on a potentially long shopping list that could include, among other things, at least one outfielder, a shortstop and a starting pitcher.
                Whether that includes big-ticket items such as outfielder Shin-Soo Choo, a Scott Boras client, remains to be seen. Wilpon hinted a trade for a player with an expensive contract could also be a possibility, but Alderson didn’t want to speculate so early in the offseason.
                “We have much more room to maneuver than in recent years and I hope to take advantage of that maneuverability,” Alderson said.
                As Wilpon noted Tuesday, that could take some time, perhaps until the GM meetings next month or even the Winter Meetings, which don’t begin until Dec. 9.
                “We have to see how the market develops,” Alderson said. “We’ll know better what’s available at that point.”


                Finances are always an issue with every team? Tell that to the Red Sox with their $160 million payroll.
                Good article- sounds like there will be a little spending. Finally...hopefully.

                I also agree with him that finances are an issue with every team. Its just a matter of how much each individual teams ceiling is. For the Sox 160 is their number. For the Mets it use to be 140 and even with that they didnt have the results. I think every team has a budget (even the Dodgers) some are just higher.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
                  [/B]

                  Red Sox 160mil in 2013 WS champs.
                  Red Sox 175mil in 2012- last place
                  All the Mets management needs to see is that to rationalize that spending more money doesn't guarantee anything (which every Met fan knows over the years). I'm more interested in Sandy's maneuverability as it relates to finances. The series is over the free agents can be signed starting about a week later?
                  Spending does NOT guarantee winning a World Series.
                  Guaranteed, you must spend to win a World Series.

                  There has not been a bottom spender since the 1991 Twins who were 16th in payroll. Spending does not mean you win, because you have to spend wisely. But a team MUST spend. So far, the Tampa Bay business model has not won a WS.

                  Look at the last 20 years and see who has won the WS, and look at their payrolls. Sorry but the numbers are all out there. Even Sandy Spendthrift had the highest payroll out in 1991 (and yes the Twins still won).roof:

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
                    Spending does NOT guarantee winning a World Series.
                    Guaranteed, you must spend to win a World Series.

                    There has not been a bottom spender since the 1991 Twins who were 16th in payroll. Spending does not mean you win, because you have to spend wisely. But a team MUST spend. So far, the Tampa Bay business model has not won a WS.

                    Look at the last 20 years and see who has won the WS, and look at their payrolls. Sorry but the numbers are all out there. Even Sandy Spendthrift had the highest payroll out in 1991 (and yes the Twins still won).roof:
                    Good point and I agree.

                    Spending guarantees nothing.....Not Spending Gurantees that you wont win. Funny how that happens.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                      Good point and I agree.

                      Spending guarantees nothing.....Not Spending Gurantees that you wont win. Funny how that happens.
                      True, History has also shown us spending foolishly will guarantee headlines in November, booing in June and empty stadiums in September.

                      They had 40 million on the DL or released last year. Lets see how or if they spend it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                        True, History has also shown us spending foolishly will guarantee headlines in November, booing in June and empty stadiums in September.

                        They had 40 million on the DL or released last year. Lets see how or if they spend it.
                        So let me make sure I have this correct......A team needs to spend money, and also spend wisely? Is that right?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                          So let me make sure I have this correct......A team needs to spend money, and also spend wisely? Is that right?
                          Na, they should spend on everything because its not "our" money!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                            Na, they should spend on everything because its not "our" money!!
                            Now your talking.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                              So let me make sure I have this correct......A team needs to spend money, and also spend wisely? Is that right?
                              Word has it Alderson is looking into this, studying the matter, weighing the implications, sifting the inherent value proposition, trying on some new fleece vests. He may adopt "the Red Sox model."
                              Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                                Word has it Alderson is looking into this, studying the matter, weighing the implications, sifting the inherent value proposition, trying on some new fleece vests. He may adopt "the Red Sox model."
                                Funny thing is the Red Sox model --- is his model

                                Comment

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