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RA Dickey

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  • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    Relative value? Not sure what you mean here. Focusing on WAR per $? Ultimately that's a loser's game. George Steinbrenner left this world with seven World Series rings. Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman have a combined total of zero. At the end of the day consistent spending usually correlates to consistent winning. Traditionally, good teams don't deal high actual value for possibilities. It's no coincidence.

    What I dislike most about this trade is what it signals. It shows the Wilpons have punted the next couple seasons. It also indicates they'll pinch pennies harder than ever in the future. Moneyball is a necessary evil in markets like Tampa Bay. Not so in New York where the Wilpons make a fortune. This bodes ill for fans.
    Dickey or not, we werent winning the next two years anyway.
    unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
    unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
    unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
      Relative value? Not sure what you mean here. Focusing on WAR per $? Ultimately that's a loser's game. George Steinbrenner left this world with seven World Series rings. Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman have a combined total of zero. At the end of the day consistent spending usually correlates to consistent winning. Traditionally, good teams don't deal high actual value for possibilities. It's no coincidence.

      What I dislike most about this trade is what it signals. It shows the Wilpons have punted the next couple seasons. It also indicates they'll pinch pennies harder than ever in the future. Moneyball is a necessary evil in markets like Tampa Bay. Not so in New York where the Wilpons make a fortune. This bodes ill for fans.
      1. Since when is trading for prospects "moneyball?"
      2. WAR is pretty useless since it relies on FIP, and knuckleballers are an exception to that metric. Assuming we're going by fWAR.
      3. Consistently smart spending correlates to consistent winning.
      4. Good teams don't deal high actual value for possibilities. The thing is we AREN'T A WINNING TEAM.
      5. The next couple of seasons were punted before the Dickey trade.
      6. The whole Steinbrenner / Friedman comparison is fallacious.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by LostMet View Post
        Sometimes blaming the guy in charge is appropriate...
        And sometimes like during the teams Christmas party it's completely inappropriate.

        Bottom line the guys in charge did not force Dickey to sign a team option for five million a year, he's an adult and did that all by himself with his agent. You can bet if he was terrible he would be very happy to have that security.

        The guys in charge did not physically make him go the party where the kids did not care about his salary. The guys in charge did not make him even when apologizing cover his mistake by blaming others for putting him in that position.

        I'm sure if your kids went you might have a problem if a multimillionaire taking a tantrum is what their trip will be remembered for.

        Dickey could picked up a phone and called a writer any day before the party and done this-no problem.
        He could have waited until after the party-no problem.

        He handled it badly, he handled his apology badly blaming others.

        What happened internally does not excuse Dickey's conduct at all, if he could not control his emotions for the sake of the kids for only ONE crummy day, stay home.

        Any other day he can complain all he likes-no problem.
        Last edited by WEB; 12-21-2012, 06:58 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by WEB View Post
          What happened internally does not excuse Dickey's conduct at all, if he could not control his emotions for the sake of the kids for only ONE crummy day, stay home.

          Any other day he can complain all he likes-no problem.
          So you're saying that for that one day, Dickey acted like a... a... well, you know.
          X
          Archie Bunker: All I can tell you, Edith, is I'm surprised at you! Dragging me off to a moving picture like that! It was absolutely disgusting!
          Edith Bunker: Well, I'm sorry, Archie, how was I to know? I thought it was a religious picture, "Cardinal Knowledge!"

          Comment


          • Amateur psychoanalysis aside...


            A pretty cool gif of why Dickey is difficult to hit


            http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.p...ling-knuckler/
            [ATTACH=CONFIG]117676[/ATTACH]
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • Originally posted by filihok View Post
              Amateur psychoanalysis aside...


              A pretty cool gif of why Dickey is difficult to hit


              http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.p...ling-knuckler/
              Thank you for that. That is an awesome piece of footage. I think the catcher was surpised he even caught it.

              Comment


              • What astounds me about that pitch is that it's over the plate -- the heart of the plate! -- at all times despite the multiple changes in direction.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                  Thank you for that. That is an awesome piece of footage. I think the catcher was surpised he even caught it.
                  Look at the batter's face as the ball crosses the plate - brilliant!

                  We're gonna miss Mr. Dickey.
                  Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                    Thank you for that. That is an awesome piece of footage. I think the catcher was surpised he even caught it.
                    You should see Dickey's changeup during his 20th win:
                    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...ws-a-changeup/
                    The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
                      1. Since when is trading for prospects "moneyball?"
                      2. WAR is pretty useless since it relies on FIP, and knuckleballers are an exception to that metric. Assuming we're going by fWAR.
                      3. Consistently smart spending correlates to consistent winning.
                      4. Good teams don't deal high actual value for possibilities. The thing is we AREN'T A WINNING TEAM.
                      5. The next couple of seasons were punted before the Dickey trade.
                      6. The whole Steinbrenner / Friedman comparison is fallacious.
                      The Steinbrenner vs. Beane/Friedman comparison is at the crux of this issue.

                      The Mets generate a ton of money but the Wilpons stick it straight in their pockets, so the Mets are now forced to adopt the management strategy of perennial losers (or at least non-winners). At a certain point it doesn't matter how clever you are: you need to spend.

                      As I've said before, I see a timetable emerging where the Wilpons will not spend until they're about to launch that disgraceful publicly subsidized mall on land seized from their neighbors. Deals like this are intended to build a respectable core for then. At that point they'll spend what's needed to elevate the flawed, low budget product to "meaningful baseball in September" levels. They could afford to give fans a respectable team now, but it doesn't serve their interests. So every watchable, enjoyable piece that might cost them over minimum salary has been dumped; everyone but Golden Boy. He'll likely be past his prime by the time they're ready to contend, but he had to be retained to keep the hard core laundry crowd appeased.

                      This isn't an honest rebuild. It's a cynical attempt to sell fans on not spending. I'll say it again: if they were committed to the strategy you think is such a great idea, Reyes and Golden Boy would have been dealt for top prospects and they wouldn't have made signability under slot their number one priority for draftees.


                      "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                      Comment


                      • I found it hilarious how you tackled none of my points, and just created a superficial argument abundant with your usual bias against the Wilpons.

                        And what do you mean by "this isn't an honest rebuild"? So we're half-heartedly building towards the future? Does that even make sense? We'll probably be in the playoff hunt by 2015 (2016 at the latest) - when Wright is approaching middle age. He'll still be productive and an effective ball player at that age.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
                          I found it hilarious how you tackled none of my points, and just created a superficial argument abundant with your usual bias against the Wilpons.

                          And what do you mean by "this isn't an honest rebuild"? So we're half-heartedly building towards the future? Does that even make sense? We'll probably be in the playoff hunt by 2015 (2016 at the latest) - when Wright is approaching middle age. He'll still be productive and an effective ball player at that age.
                          Sorry you refuse to get the point. I'll repeat: dumping peak talent (and yes, regardless of age Dickey is peak talent) for prospects is the traditional strategy of teams that never win. Sometimes it works, but trading certainty for possibility is inherently a low percentage play. That's why the teams that most famously employ it have no rings.

                          Payroll is down another $30 million or so this year and not a single big league quality player has been added yet.

                          The reason a team in the most lucrative market in the world is using this method is the owners are denuding the team of as much revenue as they can and sticking it in their pockets. This, of course, is priority number one. If it wasn't they wouldn't fail to sign their number two draft pick because he wouldn't sign for below slot (among other things).

                          What's so hard to understand about this???
                          Last edited by Mongoose; 12-22-2012, 03:04 PM.


                          "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                          Comment


                          • It's interesting going back and seeing what worked and what didn't when it comes to moving proven commodities for prospects. Many here in Philly believe it was the trade of Jim Thome to the ChiSox that helped start their run as it opened up a spot for Ryan Howard who was making no money at the time.

                            When the trade was made, the return was an okay CF in Aaron Rowand along with some prospects. One of those prospects was Gio Gonzalez who, later on, was sent back to Chicago along with Gavin Floyd for SP Freddie Garcia - which will go down as one of the worst trades in recent Phillies memory.

                            Had the Phils held onto Gio and let him develop (as the A's did), his breakout year in 2010 may have led to many different decisions. The biggest one in being, since he was a lefty - and the Phils already had Cole Hamels, there'd be no need to go after Cliff Lee. Gio would have been very inexpensive and even with his new deal is only about $8M of AAV - compared to approximately $25M AAV for an aging Cliff Lee. Just that extra $17M would give them the flexibility to address other avenues, and it also would have meant he wouldn't be a National.

                            Lots of other woulda's, should's and coulda's of course. But it's sometimes fun to go back and see how things transpired moving forward.

                            Back in '07, the Braves traded Mark Teixeira to the Angels. They let him hit FA following the 2008, and since he signed with the Yankees, they received the 25th pick overall in the '09 draft - giving them #24 & #25. They used that twenty fifth pick on Mike Trout.

                            I still think this move helps both teams in the direction they're heading. The Jays are in win-now mode and the Mets' window should open up in a few years. We've seen the value in a top-flight catcher with Posey in SF, and even Mauer keeping the Twins from being more of an afterthought than they'd normally be. If Travis continues on his path, you all will be very happy having him in your everyday lineup when the Mets become players for the NL East once again in a few years.
                            "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by filihok View Post
                              Amateur psychoanalysis aside...


                              A pretty cool gif of why Dickey is difficult to hit


                              http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.p...ling-knuckler/
                              Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                              Thank you for that. That is an awesome piece of footage. I think the catcher was surpised he even caught it.
                              Originally posted by VIBaseball View Post
                              What astounds me about that pitch is that it's over the plate -- the heart of the plate! -- at all times despite the multiple changes in direction.
                              I agree. Super footage!

                              Originally posted by Strawman View Post
                              Look at the batter's face as the ball crosses the plate - brilliant!

                              We're gonna miss Mr. Dickey.
                              Indeed.

                              P.S. Mongoose, I needn't remind you that this isn't the ownership thread.
                              "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


                              Put it in the books.

                              Comment


                              • Sorry you refuse to get the point. I'll repeat: dumping peak talent (and yes, regardless of age Dickey is peak talent) for prospects is the traditional strategy of teams that never win. Sometimes it works, but trading certainty for possibility is inherently a low percentage play. That's why the teams that most famously employ it have no rings.
                                Really? Then why doesn't every team in the MLB employ your method of running a ballclub? What team other than a choice few spend their way to a ring? You'd rather continue to lose than flip peak talent for young, cost-controlled players?

                                Don't get me wrong - keeping top talent is critical to winning and contending, but we aren't winning. What don't you understand about that?

                                Comment

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