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  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    I think "hate" is a bit over the top. Nobody hates him. I am not be his biggest fan, but I don't hate him. Like I said - I just thought he shouldnt have been crowned king based on what we saw.

    I also think it was the teams responsibility to make sure they didn't embarrass Harvey with a demotion. Lets not forget they were also guilty of the undue hype that he received.


    Hopefully the worst thing we do is continue this debate about Harvey, and not discussing if his career is over because of the TOS. Lets hope that's not what it is. I rather be mocking his nickname than have his career ending.
    I think we were on the same page with Harvey from the beginning. I had taken my dad to see Harvey nearly pitch a perfect game against the White Sox....(I always felt that Tejada let the ball play him and the extra bounce cost him at first base http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/5/7...er-neither-win).

    We were on the same page with his antics off the diamond. "Hey look at me at the Knicks game". He was A-rod when he should have been Jeter. He was the 1980 NY Rangers doing commercials and hanging at Studio 54 getting the page 6 pictures, when he should have been the dynasty building Islanders concentrating on some cups..

    I questioned the whole innings controversy last season (I don't know in hindsight who was right). What I found laughable was that silly "I am running out to the mound in the 9th inning to intimidate the Royals stunt"......very bush league. Never saw Seaver or Gooden or Gibson or Palmer or Carlton pull that crap. Did Randy Johnson or Pedro have t do that to 'scare' the other team? That stunt was ridiculous to say the least.

    I actually believe that Harvey needs a trade. Steve Carlton needed a trade despite a very good stint with St Louis. In fact, Phillies fans hated losing Rick Wise in that trade ! I think there is too much water under the bridge. Maybe he becomes a pitcher like Avery on Atlanta? He was the touted one but didn't have the career of Glavine or Smoltz.

    As a Mets fan, we hope he turns it around; as a baseball fan I hope he does it on the west coast.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
    You try going from hyped to hated by millions of people...with both reactions probably overblown. Besides, it has to be hard on any player to go from ace and 3 outs away from an all-time World Series game to 4-10 with an ERA of 4.86...

    Or to go from "HAR-VEY, HAR-VEY" at home to a chorus of boos on that same mound. The good ones figure it out eventually, and we'll see how good Harvey really is, but with the pressure (and money, I'd have it in my head too knowing every run or loss or point on my ERA could mean less money, that's just the reality today) I don't begrudge the Mets trying to save Harvey some embarrassment.

    Frankly, it's somewhat refreshing. We've seen Mets stars get thrown under the bus by management.
    Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
    I think Harvey brought a lot of this drama on himself. He is a classic case of too big, too fast. A little humility from him and his agent and I am sure he would not have had to go through the extreme ups and downs. Harvey has always had no problem with the attention if it could benefit his bottom line. I hope everything works out because his health is in the best interests of the Mets but Harvey is classic example of a guy who has been mismanaged and has allowed it to happen. Jacob Degrom has handled it like a professional, Jury is still out on Thor.
    I think "hate" is a bit over the top. Nobody hates him. I am not be his biggest fan, but I don't hate him. Like I said - I just thought he shouldnt have been crowned king based on what we saw.

    I also think it was the teams responsibility to make sure they didn't embarrass Harvey with a demotion. Lets not forget they were also guilty of the undue hype that he received.


    Hopefully the worst thing we do is continue this debate about Harvey, and not discussing if his career is over because of the TOS. Lets hope that's not what it is. I rather be mocking his nickname than have his career ending.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 07-07-2016, 06:46 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjsallstars
    replied
    Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
    You try going from hyped to hated by millions of people...with both reactions probably overblown. Besides, it has to be hard on any player to go from ace and 3 outs away from an all-time World Series game to 4-10 with an ERA of 4.86...

    Or to go from "HAR-VEY, HAR-VEY" at home to a chorus of boos on that same mound. The good ones figure it out eventually, and we'll see how good Harvey really is, but with the pressure (and money, I'd have it in my head too knowing every run or loss or point on my ERA could mean less money, that's just the reality today) I don't begrudge the Mets trying to save Harvey some embarrassment.

    Frankly, it's somewhat refreshing. We've seen Mets stars get thrown under the bus by management.
    I think Harvey brought a lot of this drama on himself. He is a classic case of too big, too fast. A little humility from him and his agent and I am sure he would not have had to go through the extreme ups and downs. Harvey has always had no problem with the attention if it could benefit his bottom line. I hope everything works out because his health is in the best interests of the Mets but Harvey is classic example of a guy who has been mismanaged and has allowed it to happen. Jacob Degrom has handled it like a professional, Jury is still out on Thor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shea Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
    "Embarrassment of a demotion". If Harvey is such a tough guy why are the Mets always worried about hurting his feelings?
    You try going from hyped to hated by millions of people...with both reactions probably overblown. Besides, it has to be hard on any player to go from ace and 3 outs away from an all-time World Series game to 4-10 with an ERA of 4.86...

    Or to go from "HAR-VEY, HAR-VEY" at home to a chorus of boos on that same mound. The good ones figure it out eventually, and we'll see how good Harvey really is, but with the pressure (and money, I'd have it in my head too knowing every run or loss or point on my ERA could mean less money, that's just the reality today) I don't begrudge the Mets trying to save Harvey some embarrassment.

    Frankly, it's somewhat refreshing. We've seen Mets stars get thrown under the bus by management.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shea Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    Hopefully this was just a way to give him a breather and find out what has gone wrong - either mechanically or between the ears.

    Something had to give they couldn't keep running him out there, and maybe they wanted to save him the embarrassment of a demotion.
    That'd be my guess, his velocity seemed decent if not his Harvey best in his last start. I read a user on Facebook suggest maybe this is a way to give him a "rehab" start or two in AAA while saving face, as you say, without the embarrassment of a demotion.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjsallstars
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    Hopefully this was just a way to give him a breather and find out what has gone wrong - either mechanically or between the ears.

    Something had to give they couldn't keep running him out there, and maybe they wanted to save him the embarrassment of a demotion.
    "Embarrassment of a demotion". If Harvey is such a tough guy why are the Mets always worried about hurting his feelings?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Mets placed RHP Matt Harvey on the 15-day disabled list with right shoulder soreness.

    Harvey was knocked around for six runs by the Marlins in his last start, but there were no prior indications that he had been dealing with any sort of an injury. He will visit Dr. Robert Thompson, a vascular surgeon in St. Louis, on Thursday to determine the extent of his injury. Thoracic outlet syndrome is one possibility. While there is no current timetable for his recovery, the All-Star break will afford the Mets a convenient window in which he can mend his health. Prior to hitting the disabled list, he held a 4.86 ERA and 1.46 WHIP in 17 starts. Expect further clarification as to the nature of this shoulder soreness after Thursday's medical checkup. Jul 6 - 5:35 PM


    This is another article

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.2701775


    Lets hope the early diagnosis is incorrect. This is not life threatening from what I read but it is career threatening at the very least. Obviously this goes beyond being a baseball player, or if you like him or don't...you just wish the best for the person.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    Yikes. Harvey to DL. Gulp.
    Hopefully this was just a way to give him a breather and find out what has gone wrong - either mechanically or between the ears.

    Something had to give they couldn't keep running him out there, and maybe they wanted to save him the embarrassment of a demotion.

    Leave a comment:


  • LI METS FAN
    replied
    Yikes. Harvey to DL. Gulp.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    The comparisons with Gooden are off base. Never mind the drug issues, Gooden threw 276.2 innings in his age 20 season (with 16 complete games!).

    He was worked into the ground at a young age. Harvey has been babied for the most part.
    Feller threw 277.2 innings his age 19 season and 296.2 his age 20 season. He was fine. He didn't start having trouble until he hurt his back slipping on the mound 7 years later.

    The business about the Verducci Effect doesn't jibe with reality all that closely.

    Gooden had his mechanics changed so he'd become a contact pitcher/mediocrity. There was nothing wrong with his arm. He touched 100mph in the 1990s. I remember thinking it was nuts at the time. It was nuts.

    Tommy John himself pitched 207 innings the year after his eponymous surgery. His post-surgery career lasted 14 years, longer than his pre-surgery career.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    In 1987 we were always waiting to see Dwight Gooden of 1984-1986. It never happened. He was good but not dominant on a consistent basis.

    This could be what we have with Harvey.
    This was my original post - is there a comparison between the 2 pitchers based upon innings...surgeries, drug rehab...etc etc?

    Just the fact that answers are being looked for.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    The comparisons with Gooden are off base. Never mind the drug issues, Gooden threw 276.2 innings in his age 20 season (with 16 complete games!).

    He was worked into the ground at a young age. Harvey has been babied for the most part.
    Geez -- I was not comparing Harvey to Gooden at all. I wouldn't insult Gooden with the comparison.

    My whole point was that a pitcher can lose that extra life on his fast ball and become less dominant at any point. This may have happened to Harvey as it happened to Gooden. Regardless of innings pitched, surgeries, snorting an 8-ball daily.......Pitchers can lose dominance at any point with seemingly nothing wrong.

    Someone mentioned that Harvey pitched great yesterday -which he did - but he also mentioned that he only had 3 K's. It reminded me of Gooden - post dominance when everyone was looking for answers and hoping he finds it again.

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    The comparisons with Gooden are off base. Never mind the drug issues, Gooden threw 276.2 innings in his age 20 season (with 16 complete games!).

    He was worked into the ground at a young age. Harvey has been babied for the most part.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    With Gooden it was mechanical. Mel Stottlemyre was trying to get Gooden to pitch more to contact to preserve his arm. Fewer strikeouts. This was mentioned by Tim McCarver during some of Gooden's more lackluster starts back in 1985. "The new Dwight Gooden, who's more dangerous than the old Dwight Gooden". It was nuts. It's also hard to believe someone as low down in the hierarchy as Stottlemyre made the call.

    That was what caused the decline. He lost no velocity, his fastball just flattened out.

    Lincecum has been having physical issues, like his hip, that effect his mechanics. Pitching isn't executed with arm alone. There are a lot of elements involved.

    Harvey is just sorting through his mechanics. The last couple starts are encouraging. They're an improvement. I'm hopeful everything's fine.
    I don't think it was mechanical with Gooden. I think his strikeouts were down because he simply became less dominant, and the organization took the for hit. Don't forget during this time period it was a very different organization. In 1985 Goodens fastball had extra late life whether he threw up or down on the stirkezone. It was more apparent higher in the zone of course. I don't care what the gun said - as we all know these can be manipulated. Gooden no longer had a dominant fastball. I remember Stottlemyre saying "we are downplaying the strikeouts". Think about how much B.S. that is. Stottlemyre knew as did everyone one else with eyes what was happening.

    Before the hip issues we saw a decline in Lincecums dominance. The human arm is not made to throw the ball 95 mph. it is also not made to put the torque on the joints to throw sliders, curves, etc. It wouldn't be unique to see a pitcher lose velocity and dominance.

    Harvey may be fine, and hopefully he finds "it". My point is we may never see the 9+ K's per game average as we did in 2013. Harvey may have to learn to pitch and not bully the opposition as he was able to in the past.

    He pitched an excellent game yesterday without a high number of K's. He still can effective and strikeout out 6-7 per game. It is a craft that is learned though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    The connection is not the surgery and not the addiction. The connection quite possibly can be that a pitcher gets to a certain point (no matter how young) and his arm no longer responds as it once did. Very simple.

    I am not saying that this is the case with Harvey, but everyone seems to be waiting for the "old Harvey" to suddenly appear and it may or may not happen. The scenario is very similar (in my opinion) to when Gooden pitched post 1986. We always seemed to be waiting for his earlier dominance and it never happened.

    Sometimes it happens for no apparent reason. For example Tim Lincecum.
    With Gooden it was mechanical. Mel Stottlemyre was trying to get Gooden to pitch more to contact to preserve his arm. Fewer strikeouts. This was mentioned by Tim McCarver during some of Gooden's more lackluster starts back in 1985. "The new Dwight Gooden, who's more dangerous than the old Dwight Gooden". It was nuts. It's also hard to believe someone as low down in the hierarchy as Stottlemyre made the call.

    That was what caused the decline. He lost no velocity, his fastball just flattened out.

    Lincecum has been having physical issues, like his hip, that effect his mechanics. Pitching isn't executed with arm alone. There are a lot of elements involved.

    Harvey is just sorting through his mechanics. The last couple starts are encouraging. They're an improvement. I'm hopeful everything's fine.

    Leave a comment:

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