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  • accurately quantifying defense and separating batted ball responsibility between pitchers and fielders.
    What exactly does that mean?

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    • Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
      What exactly does that mean?
      Im no saber-geek, but FIP is an example of separating batted ball responsibility between pitchers and fielders. FIP measures the quality of a performance based on events that occur independent of fielding--such as HRs, BBs, and Ks. Stats like ERA or WHIP can be affected by the performance of fielders. I suppose there are others, but I have not taken the time to understand them, yet.

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      • Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
        What exactly does that mean?
        A batted ball is hit towards the SS. He makes a somewhat (but not highlight worthy) rangy-play on the ball for the out. Who gets credit for the out? The pitcher or the fielder? Both? That was the initial question. For 100 years, fans would have said the pitcher made a great/clutchy pitch to get the out. ERA agreed. Then came Voros McCracken and the theory that pitchers have almost no impact on outcomes on batted balls (BABIP). Then came a billion researchers that showed pitchers did have some impact on outcome on balls in play, but less than what we assumed 20 years ago. The focus now is how much impact do pitcher have, how those who suppress BABIP do it, and how long does it take to tell if a pitcher impacts BABIP.
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        • Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
          What exactly does that mean?
          Not all pitchers have equal defenses behind them. Do you agree?

          Put the same pitcher on a team with a great defense and on a team with a terrible defense and the number of hits and runs he gives up will be different. Do you agree?

          Separating batted ball responsibilities between defense and pitcher is figuring out if an out is an out because of a good pitch or a good defensive play or if a hit is a hit because of a bad pitch or a bad defensive play.


          Take a look at this thread that discusses how often batted balls with different speeds and angles become hits and extra base hits.

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          • Can we start a separate thread on this, rather than bombard a thread on Harvey with non Harvey discussion?
            unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
            unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
            unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

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            • Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
              A batted ball is hit towards the SS. He makes a somewhat (but not highlight worthy) rangy-play on the ball for the out. Who gets credit for the out? The pitcher or the fielder? Both? That was the initial question. For 100 years, fans would have said the pitcher made a great/clutchy pitch to get the out. ERA agreed.
              Many fans would understand that the SS would deserve some "credit" for the out. Of course, this stat, as you have explained it, ignores the potential contribution of other members of the team that theoretically could have contributed to the recording of that out.

              Originally posted by filihok View Post
              Not all pitchers have equal defenses behind them. Do you agree?

              Put the same pitcher on a team with a great defense and on a team with a terrible defense and the number of hits and runs he gives up will be different. Do you agree?

              Separating batted ball responsibilities between defense and pitcher is figuring out if an out is an out because of a good pitch or a good defensive play or if a hit is a hit because of a bad pitch or a bad defensive play.


              Take a look at this thread that discusses how often batted balls with different speeds and angles become hits and extra base hits.
              Yes, I do agree, but I question whether the stat accurately measures what you think it measures. This is a team sport, and I question whether stats can measure the individual performance of one player independent of the team.

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              • Originally posted by filihok View Post
                Separating batted ball responsibilities between defense and pitcher is figuring out if an out is an out because of a good pitch or a good defensive play or if a hit is a hit because of a bad pitch or a bad defensive play.
                How would an analytical framework account for somebody like Jim Palmer (admittedly a most unusual pitcher), who took it upon himself to help position his own fielders, and (anecdotally) helped get outs that way? Or the influence of a manager in this area, which would be more common?

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                • Originally posted by EasilyFound View Post
                  Many fans would understand that the SS would deserve some "credit" for the out. Of course, this stat, as you have explained it, ignores the potential contribution of other members of the team that theoretically could have contributed to the recording of that out.

                  Yes, I do agree, but I question whether the stat accurately measures what you think it measures. This is a team sport, and I question whether stats can measure the individual performance of one player independent of the team.
                  This explains your aversion to pitcher wins, RBI, etc

                  Will we be able to fully (100%) do so. Probably not. Can we improve on what we have now, certainly.


                  Originally posted by VIBaseball View Post
                  How would an analytical framework account for somebody like Jim Palmer (admittedly a most unusual pitcher), who took it upon himself to help position his own fielders, and (anecdotally) helped get outs that way? Or the influence of a manager in this area, which would be more common?
                  If we know the position of a fielder before the ball is struck then we can see if that player is closer than the average player at that position to where the ball is it.

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                  • Originally posted by filihok View Post
                    If we know the position of a fielder before the ball is struck then we can see if that player is closer than the average player at that position to where the ball is it.
                    What I'm driving at is that in some instances you may not be able to separate whether an out resulted from a good pitch or a good defensive play. They were interwoven. Pinpointing this type of thing would require very fine granular analysis.

                    Anyway, I'm going to listen to theAmazingMet now, whose post I just spotted, and make any future posts of mine in this thread about Matt Harvey.

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                    • Originally posted by VIBaseball View Post
                      What I'm driving at is that in some instances you may not be able to separate whether an out resulted from a good pitch or a good defensive play. They were interwoven.
                      This is exactly the reason why we need to change the way that we do statistics.

                      Currently, Matt Harvey throws a pitch. Marco Scutaro hits the pitch. Kirk Nieuwenhuis fields the ball. Scutaro is debited for making an out and Harvey and Nieuwenhuis get equal credit for producing the out. It doesn't matter if the ball is a routine fly ball to CF or if Nieuwenhuis had to scale the wall to pull it back into the field of play. It all counts the same on the stat sheet.

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                      • Originally posted by filihok View Post
                        This is exactly the reason why we need to change the way that we do statistics.

                        Currently, Matt Harvey throws a pitch. Marco Scutaro hits the pitch. Kirk Nieuwenhuis fields the ball. Scutaro is debited for making an out and Harvey and Nieuwenhuis get equal credit for producing the out. It doesn't matter if the ball is a routine fly ball to CF or if Nieuwenhuis had to scale the wall to pull it back into the field of play. It all counts the same on the stat sheet.
                        Lets hope that never happens.

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                        • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                          Lets hope that never happens.
                          Why?

                          Are you also opposed to errors?
                          It's the same thing

                          The pitcher induces the batter to hit a ball that should be an out, but the fielder doesn't make the play. We don't give the hitter credit. We don't blame the pitcher.

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                          • Originally posted by filihok View Post
                            Why?

                            Are you also opposed to errors?
                            It's the same thing

                            The pitcher induces the batter to hit a ball that should be an out, but the fielder doesn't make the play. We don't give the hitter credit. We don't blame the pitcher.
                            Did I say that? I just re-read my post and I am pretty sure I didnt say that.

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                            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                              Did I say that? I just re-read my post and I am pretty sure I didnt say that.
                              Did I say you did? I just re-read my post and I am pretty sure I didn't say that.

                              I'm also pretty sure you didn't answer my question. Why do you hope that never happens? I mean, you're always free to ignore those stats that you don't understand or don't like.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by filihok View Post
                                Did I say you did? I just re-read my post and I am pretty sure I didn't say that.

                                I'm also pretty sure you didn't answer my question. Why do you hope that never happens? I mean, you're always free to ignore those stats that you don't understand or don't like.
                                Maybe his objection is to the part that has Nieuwenhuis in the lineup. o_O
                                That would be mine if I was a Mets fan.
                                "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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