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  • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    Sadly, the time where 42 year old Hall of famer Warren Spahn goes out there and pitches until his arm falls off (201 pitches), and the opposing Hall of famer Juan Marichal (227 pitches)says "I can't come out if Warren is still in there"...well those days are over.

    It is all about the money, period. Agent, player, owner. The manager is the guy caught in the middle. Boras would tell you, RJ, to shove your 4 year $60 million dollar contract. Kershaw has a $215 milllion dollar contract. That's the zip code we are looking at . To you and I , $60 million means life on easy street. However, it isn't in the same stratosphere.

    The money has gone so haywire that this can't even compare to 1977 when Dick Young leaked out the story that Nancy Seaver was jealous of Ruth Ryan based on their husbands salary. Seaver said that was the straw that broke the camel's back . Back then it was laughable. Ryan was making $300K, and Seaver $225K.

    This isn't a Mets issue, or a Sandy issue , or even a Wilpon issue. Harvey and Boras will want Kershaw money someday. Does anyone think Harvey will risk that for his $800K salary? I certainly would not !

    Harvey wants Kershaw's money. If he can get it sooner rather than later, he won't be a Met.
    The money part of baseball sucks.
    He may want Kershaw money. Kershaw is exactly one year older and is 110-55. Harvey is 24-17. They aren't on the same planet and wishing they were doesn't make it so.

    If, hypothetically, when the time comes the Rockies offer him the most money will he go there and leave NYC? I guess so.

    Usually I worry about keeping Met home-grown players but he is the exception.

    Comment


    • Scott Boras at odds with Mets over Matt Harvey's innings limit
      http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...QDBHNlYwNzYw--

      I get it, but I don't see them offering any rebates.
      Last edited by PVNICK; 09-04-2015, 01:06 PM. Reason: to add link (in probably a very ugly format)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mandrake View Post
        Sadly, the time where 42 year old Hall of famer Warren Spahn goes out there and pitches until his arm falls off (201 pitches), and the opposing Hall of famer Juan Marichal (227 pitches)says "I can't come out if Warren is still in there"...well those days are over.

        It is all about the money, period. Agent, player, owner. The manager is the guy caught in the middle. Boras would tell you, RJ, to shove your 4 year $60 million dollar contract. Kershaw has a $215 milllion dollar contract. That's the zip code we are looking at . To you and I , $60 million means life on easy street. However, it isn't in the same stratosphere.

        The money has gone so haywire that this can't even compare to 1977 when Dick Young leaked out the story that Nancy Seaver was jealous of Ruth Ryan based on their husbands salary. Seaver said that was the straw that broke the camel's back . Back then it was laughable. Ryan was making $300K, and Seaver $225K.

        This isn't a Mets issue, or a Sandy issue , or even a Wilpon issue. Harvey and Boras will want Kershaw money someday. Does anyone think Harvey will risk that for his $800K salary? I certainly would not !

        Harvey wants Kershaw's money. If he can get it sooner rather than later, he won't be a Met. The money part of baseball sucks.
        Probably would. Horas only gets 10% He is the "loser" in the deal. Once again, plenty of villians, very few heros

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
          Scott Boras at odds with Mets over Matt Harvey's innings limit
          http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...QDBHNlYwNzYw--

          I get it, but I don't see them offering any rebates.
          One source says Harvey makes $614,125.00 in 2015 He had TJ surgery. I would presume he thinks he could re injure himself and there goes his huge pay day. Boras is an ass. He is worried he won't get his cut of the eventual mega contract. Right now he probably gets peanuts from Harvey, but down the road it could be the pot of gold.

          If I was Boras, I would do the same thing. If I was Harvey, I would probably lean towards playing it safe. Could he not pitch for the next 3 weeks, then pitch the last week and be ready for the post season? It's easy for fans to sit at a key board and want him to go out and win it for the gipper, but $$$$$ rules.

          However, I do wish it was still the day where winning was the single most important thing . Everyone does their best to win, then the $$$ rewards roll in.

          Kershaw $215mm, Max Scherzer, $210,000,000 Justin Verlander, $180,000,000 Felix Hernandez, $175,000,000 CC Sabathia, $161,000,000 Masahiro Tanaka $155,000,000 Jon Lester, $155,000,000 Zack Greinke, $147,000,000

          Seriously, guys like Harvey (deGromm, , Syndergaard) must look at this money and get very antsy. It's sort of like college athletes who risk injury playing football for free, waiting for that NFL jackpot.:disbelief:

          Comment


          • We all know Boras is a bad word, but if Harvey was your agent wouldn't you do the same thing?

            They put this 180 innings limit on Harvey and now they (with the playoffs/WS) can see this thing blowing up into the 230's if the Mets get into the WS. Those are also not 7 innings per start against the Phillies in the regular season. The playoffs are high stress max effort innings.

            So as much as I don't like Boras --- I get it.

            All these hero tales about guys throwing 900 pitches in a game sound wonderful. The problem is for every guy that did that 20 had their careers ended short because they pitched with an injury for years. We don't hear those names because those don't end well so they get buried.

            Harvey is not giving the Mets a discount. RJ - if you think Boras is going to take a 4 year $60M contract extension you should reconsider that. Harvey is going to have one shot at a big FA contract he is not going to take something now (unless its off the charts) that will force him to have to sign a second contract. 7 years $175 million MAYBE gets Boras interested. Maybe.

            At the end of the day this whole decision is up to Harvey, not the Mets, and not Boras. If Harvey wants to follow what the doctors said he can, if he wants to keep pitching he will. That's pretty much what it is.
            Last edited by Paulypal; 09-05-2015, 09:49 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
              We all know Boras is a bad word, but if Harvey was your agent wouldn't you do the same thing?

              They put this 180 innings limit on Harvey and now they (with the playoffs/WS) can see this thing blowing up into the 230's if the Mets get into the WS. Those are also not 7 innings per start against the Phillies in the regular season. The playoffs are high stress max effort innings.

              So as much as I don't like Boras --- I get it.

              All these hero tales about guys throwing 900 pitches in a game sound wonderful. The problem is for every guy that did that 20 had their careers ended short because they pitched with an injury for years. We don't hear those names because those don't end well so they get buried.

              Harvey is not giving the Mets a discount. RJ - if you think Boras is going to take a 4 year $60M contract extension you should reconsider that. Harvey is going to have one shot at a big FA contract he is not going to take something now (unless its off the charts) that will force him to have to sign a second contract. 7 years $175 million MAYBE gets Boras interested. Maybe.

              At the end of the day this whole decision is up to Harvey, not the Mets, and not Boras. If Harvey wants to follow what the doctors said he can, if he wants to keep pitching he will. That's pretty much what it is.
              100% correct, the dollar always wins. The same line of thinking would make it hard to blame an owner who suddenly loses a bundle because he gets conned tightening up the purse strings until things got sorted out?

              More importantly, bats are alive and well again in Miami. Hopefully the old pro will find a way to get through 8 innings and give the bullpen a rest.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                100% correct, the dollar always wins. The same line of thinking would make it hard to blame an owner who suddenly loses a bundle because he gets conned tightening up the purse strings until things got sorted out...
                Not sure who you're talking about. The only owner who suddenly lost a bundle because he got conned was Nelson Doubleday:

                http://www.villagevoice.com/news/mlb...e-stat-6412992

                Don't know if he tightened his purse strings afterwards or not.


                "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                  Not sure who you're talking about. The only owner who suddenly lost a bundle because he got conned was Nelson Doubleday:

                  http://www.villagevoice.com/news/mlb...e-stat-6412992

                  Don't know if he tightened his purse strings afterwards or not.
                  Both issues revolve around greed and selfishness. As I have written for years, too much of that to go around to single out one guy as the villain.

                  Comment


                  • Uh-Oh The Dark Knight about to bail on Gotham???

                    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/sp...shut-down.html

                    Matt Harvey aka the Dark Knight of Gotham who just a little while ago was complaining about 6 man rotations because he wanted the ball, then complained about being skipped because he wanted the ball. Hell he wanted the ball last September but...........suddenly may not want the ball.


                    So which is it Matt....are you this gunslinger...the Dark Knight of Gotham that wants the ball or are you just like 99.99% of everyone else and concerned about your next contract?

                    Now I dont blame Harvey for being concerned about his future at all. He should be because of if he gets hurt and cant pitch he will be pushed aside like any other athlete.

                    My point is that you cant have it both ways. You cant be the Dark Knight of Gotham, and be worried about your own well being first. It just doesnt work. The Caped Crusader protected Gotham regardless of his condition, and despite the advice of Alfred (Scott Boras) - his faithful caretaker. In the interview which I watched on SNY the Dark Knight of Gotham sounded like he may be hiding behind the advice of Alfred Scott Boras, and the doctor that performed the surgery.

                    Time to make a decision Matt. You either shut it down after two more starts when you hit your 180 IP limit miss the potential playoffs or you pitch on.

                    Where will the Dark Knight of Gotham be when Commissioner Collins flashes the Bat Signal in October??? Stay tuned.

                    I always thought the Dark Knight of Gotham moniker was utterly ridiculous. Now it seems like its about to die a very cruel death.

                    Comment


                    • [QUOTE=Paulypal;2488266]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/sp...shut-down.html

                      Matt Harvey aka the Dark Knight of Gotham who just a little while ago was complaining about 6 man rotations because he wanted the ball, then complained about being skipped because he wanted the ball. Hell he wanted the ball last September but...........suddenly may not want the ball.


                      So which is it Matt....are you this gunslinger...the Dark Knight of Gotham that wants the ball or are you just like 99.99% of everyone else and concerned about your next contract?

                      Now I dont blame Harvey for being concerned about his future at all. He should be because of if he gets hurt and cant pitch he will be pushed aside like any other athlete.

                      My point is that you cant have it both ways. You cant be the Dark Knight of Gotham, and be worried about your own well being first. It just doesnt work. The Caped Crusader protected Gotham regardless of his condition, and despite the advice of Alfred (Scott Boras) - his faithful caretaker. In the interview which I watched on SNY the Dark Knight of Gotham sounded like he may be hiding behind the advice of Alfred Scott Boras, and the doctor that performed the surgery.

                      Time to make a decision Matt. You either shut it down after two more starts when you hit your 180 IP limit miss the potential playoffs or you pitch on.

                      Where will the Dark Knight of Gotham be when Commissioner Collins flashes the Bat Signal in October??? Stay tuned.

                      I always thought the Dark Knight of Gotham moniker was utterly ridiculous. Now it seems like its about to die a very cruel death.[/QUO
                      You mean you can't have it both ways. What rule book are you reading from?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                        Both issues revolve around greed and selfishness. As I have written for years, too much of that to go around to single out one guy as the villain.
                        It's a matter of degree. Harvey's looking out for #1. Fred presents as a hardcore sociopath who's substantially ruined being a Mets fan. Comparing Harvey to Fred is like comparing Fred to Satan.

                        And who wouldn't be concerned putting their future in the hands of this organization especially where medical oversight is concerned. They've shown no qualms about overusing and ruining injured players. If you had a 9 figure sum at stake would you give them the benefit of the doubt?


                        "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                          It's a matter of degree. Harvey's looking out for #1. Fred presents as a hardcore sociopath who's substantially ruined being a Mets fan. Comparing Harvey to Fred is like comparing Fred to Satan.

                          And who wouldn't be concerned putting their future in the hands of this organization especially where medical oversight is concerned. They've shown no qualms about overusing and ruining injured players. If you had a 9 figure sum at stake would you give them the benefit of the doubt?
                          Sorry not this time. This isnt about Fred and this isnt about the Mets organization. This is about Boras, Harvey and Dr. Andrews.

                          You almost asked a valid question when you asked If you had a 9 figure sum at stake would you give them the benefit of the doubt? Almost. Its not about giving the Mets or their medical staff the benefit of the doubt. They Mets and their medical staff having nothing to do with this as Dr. Andrews will supersede all in this instance.

                          The question is: If you had a 9 figure sum at stake would you risk pitching?. The Mets Owner, GM, Manager, and medical staff are out of this loop. I cant say I blame Harvey if he follows Andrews orders to the letter, but with his gunslinger, Dark Knight persona are gone for good. He can and will become Steven Strassburg of this organization if he shuts it down in September.

                          He backtracked in his interview and looked sheepish at times about what he was going to do. The tough guy was gone last night.

                          If the Mets happen to win it all or go deep into the playoffs without him - not only is his persona damaged but also the feeling that the organization needs him is gone.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                            Sorry not this time. This isnt about Fred and this isnt about the Mets organization. This is about Boras, Harvey and Dr. Andrews.

                            You almost asked a valid question when you asked If you had a 9 figure sum at stake would you give them the benefit of the doubt? Almost. Its not about giving the Mets or their medical staff the benefit of the doubt. They Mets and their medical staff having nothing to do with this as Dr. Andrews will supersede all in this instance.

                            The question is: If you had a 9 figure sum at stake would you risk pitching?. The Mets Owner, GM, Manager, and medical staff are out of this loop. I cant say I blame Harvey if he follows Andrews orders to the letter, but with his gunslinger, Dark Knight persona are gone for good. He can and will become Steven Strassburg of this organization if he shuts it down in September.

                            He backtracked in his interview and looked sheepish at times about what he was going to do. The tough guy was gone last night.

                            If the Mets happen to win it all or go deep into the playoffs without him - not only is his persona damaged but also the feeling that the organization needs him is gone.
                            I wasn't the one who introduced Fred to this discussion. Rjsallstars was. Though I disagree with his analogy in one sense, fundamentally there's some logic. The fish rots from the head down. If management is going use a cynical, money based, lowest common denominator it becomes hard to blame players for doing likewise.

                            This should have been sorted out at the beginning of the season. Ironically the extra starter isn't their biggest need going into the playoffs. Perhaps they should cut Harvey's workload by making him the 7th inning man. He might be more helpful there.

                            The press has always liked players that project confidence and talk big. In contrast my favorite players were always guys like Mookie Wilson and Daniel Murphy that confined their leadership to leaving it all on the field every day. Once you get old enough to realize pro wrestling is just theater "Dark Knight" type nonsense no longer registers. His performance on the field has been excellent. What you're talking about doesn't pertain to that.

                            If you mean this might help Fred justify getting rid of him before he hits market rate salary, you might have a point.


                            "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                              I wasn't the one who introduced Fred to this discussion. Rjsallstars was. Though I disagree with his analogy in one sense, fundamentally there's some logic. The fish rots from the head down. If management is going use a cynical, money based, lowest common denominator it becomes hard to blame players for doing likewise.

                              This should have been sorted out at the beginning of the season. Ironically the extra starter isn't their biggest need going into the playoffs. Perhaps they should cut Harvey's workload by making him the 7th inning man. He might be more helpful there.

                              The press has always liked players that project confidence and talk big. In contrast my favorite players were always guys like Mookie Wilson and Daniel Murphy that confined their leadership to leaving it all on the field every day. Once you get old enough to realize pro wrestling is just theater "Dark Knight" type nonsense no longer registers. His performance on the field has been excellent. What you're talking about doesn't pertain to that.

                              If you mean this might help Fred justify getting rid of him before he hits market rate salary, you might have a point.
                              I agree with you that all the media Dark Knight b.s. has always been just that to me. Although his performance has been excellent and that is all I really care about I think Harvey has fallen prey a bit to the high life and media attention he was given. I just find it amazing for all of his big talk how quickly he seem to retract his tough guy persona.

                              I dont think Harvey is using the money as the lowest common denominator because Fred does. I think he is doing it because thats what the majority of people do in any walk of life. Add Scott Boras into the mix and you have a recipe for what has transpired.

                              I also dont think there is any doubt that Harvey is not a Met well before its market time.

                              I still like my idea of not starting Harvey until June 1st. That eliminated all this mess that is occurring

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                                I agree with you that all the media Dark Knight b.s. has always been just that to me. Although his performance has been excellent and that is all I really care about I think Harvey has fallen prey a bit to the high life and media attention he was given. I just find it amazing for all of his big talk how quickly he seem to retract his tough guy persona.

                                I dont think Harvey is using the money as the lowest common denominator because Fred does. I think he is doing it because thats what the majority of people do in any walk of life. Add Scott Boras into the mix and you have a recipe for what has transpired.

                                I also dont think there is any doubt that Harvey is not a Met well before its market time.

                                I still like my idea of not starting Harvey until June 1st. That eliminated all this mess that is occurring
                                Totally agree. I liked Harvey on the mound since I first saw him, but I also became very critical of him off the field (being seen courtside at MSG, partying in NYC, not wanting to rehab in FL etc). I believe , no matter what choice he eventually makes, is that he isn't the "team first" type of guy.

                                Whether he is making 600K or 800K, Boras has been blowing smoke up his chimney that he 'deserves' a $150 million dollar mega contract. It could be years down the road, but I see Harvey eventually out in Hollywood. (or he could also blow out his arm before the $$$).

                                I agree he should not have pitched before June. I also agree that if Wheeler can come back , Zack may not be the pitcher eventually traded. deGromm, Matz, Syndergaard, Wheeler......could Harvey bring back a real hitter who is not a 'rent a player".?

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