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  • Mongoose
    replied
    Less than 2 months ago the Mets discovered Harvey's right shoulder had atrophied, and the muscles at the back of the shoulder were half their previous size. What the hell was he doing coming back so soon? Did his shoulder magically regenerate itself the last few weeks? His rehab starts were not good. Why not just shut him down for the rest of the season?

    Maybe, if given the chance to rehab properly, Harvey could come back as an effective pitcher. Unfortunately, that goes against this team's philosophy. Whether it's playing guys with concussions, or playing guys with broken backs, or playing pitchers with atrophied shoulders, Fred and Jeff are determined to get their "money's worth".

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  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post

    Can we make the assumption that there is a team out there willing to take him?? Would you if it was your team, even for a bag of used baseballs?
    Are the baseballs in question old or new?

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  • brooklynboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    Exactly -- they suck so they may as well suck here. Awesome way to run a team

    I get Shea Knight though because Harvey is clearly his favorite player, and you always hope against hope that he finds it. I did with Strawberry when he went from the Mets to the Dodgers to the Giants to the Yankees.

    I am done with Harvey. I was pulling for him going into the season but some people don't learn. You cant fix stupid. The whole supermodel Edelman thing is just ---- well the fact that its public knowledge is a sad commentary on all involved, and where we are in general.

    So lets review - we have 46 Pages on this forum for a pitcher that:

    1) has 13 more pages on this forum than career wins in the 5 seasons he has been a household name.
    2) has 100 more posts about him in this thread than he does strikeouts
    3) has more page 6 visits than wins
    4) in his biggest moment of charging out the dugout screaming after demanding to be left in the game - he coughed up the lead which started with a walk on a 3-2 slider.

    He needed to go in December of 2015 - there was never any doubt that was the right move at the right time.

    If they get a bag of balls for him -- take it. If he rebounds in another setting so be it and move on. Or we can wait around for all the suck players to show a pulse hoping that someone takes them. Not the way to run a successful franchise because if they don't turn it around they are just sucking on your roster.

    Can we make the assumption that there is a team out there willing to take him?? Would you if it was your team, even for a bag of used baseballs?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post

    I got the same theme and vibe from Shea Knight. . Harvey has no trade value so let's keep him.??? Makes no sense. How about addition by subtraction ? Just when you feel sorry for Harvey, he is back on page six with a supermodel, buying tequila shots for the house out in the Hamptons. isn't he supposed to be rehabbing something?

    There are more than a few players on the roster who have little trade value...and I don't want to keep them.

    TDA, Reyes, Lagares...we won't get anything for them so let's keep them around ?
    Exactly -- they suck so they may as well suck here. Awesome way to run a team

    I get Shea Knight though because Harvey is clearly his favorite player, and you always hope against hope that he finds it. I did with Strawberry when he went from the Mets to the Dodgers to the Giants to the Yankees.

    I am done with Harvey. I was pulling for him going into the season but some people don't learn. You cant fix stupid. The whole supermodel Edelman thing is just ---- well the fact that its public knowledge is a sad commentary on all involved, and where we are in general.

    So lets review - we have 46 Pages on this forum for a pitcher that:

    1) has 13 more pages on this forum than career wins in the 5 seasons he has been a household name.
    2) has 100 more posts about him in this thread than he does strikeouts
    3) has more page 6 visits than wins
    4) in his biggest moment of charging out the dugout screaming after demanding to be left in the game - he coughed up the lead which started with a walk on a 3-2 slider.

    He needed to go in December of 2015 - there was never any doubt that was the right move at the right time.

    If they get a bag of balls for him -- take it. If he rebounds in another setting so be it and move on. Or we can wait around for all the suck players to show a pulse hoping that someone takes them. Not the way to run a successful franchise because if they don't turn it around they are just sucking on your roster.


    Last edited by Paulypal; 07-12-2017, 09:17 AM.

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  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    Your thoughts exactly?? No it isn't.

    You didtn want to trade him when he was healthy....now you don't because he isn't healthy. So basically you like him and don't want him traded - I get it for sure. I also had "that player" that I didn't want the Mets to let go of.

    He was in the SWEET SPOT for trading. December 2015 was that sweet spot. Under years of control, just pitched well in the post season, just had a huge blowout with the team/agent, and would have brought back a huge haul. Sweet spots don't get any sweeter than that. Again - the non sweet spot for you was - it was Harvey and there is no trading sweet spot for Harvey as far as you are concerned.

    I didn't say trade him during the 2015 playoff run. I said it after the 2015 season was complete. So you saying that I said he should be traded during 2015 season is erroneous.

    Now we wait until he is healthy, but what you are saying is (And hoping) Harvey finds it again - dons his Batman mask and again becomes the guy the Mets should keep.

    He has very little value right now, but that might all he ever is.
    I got the same theme and vibe from Shea Knight. . Harvey has no trade value so let's keep him.??? Makes no sense. How about addition by subtraction ? Just when you feel sorry for Harvey, he is back on page six with a supermodel, buying tequila shots for the house out in the Hamptons. isn't he supposed to be rehabbing something?

    There are more than a few players on the roster who have little trade value...and I don't want to keep them.

    TDA, Reyes, Lagares...we won't get anything for them so let's keep them around ?
    Last edited by mandrake; 07-12-2017, 08:31 AM.

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  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post

    ^My thoughts exactly. And that's why I've always felt the best option with Harvey has tended to be keeping him, even when (as is the case now) that's unpalatable in part--

    He's NEVER been in what we might call the "sweet spot of trading," good enough to move but not great enough to really potentially regret it. (Bruce is a perfect example--good enough to deal and get something decent back, but chances are it won't come back to bite us...dangerous as that statement always is for the Mets.)

    He's either been the Dark Knight (2013, 2015) or Flat Harvey (most of 2016, 2017 after his good start into mid-May or so.) I've always argued the former state's too good to trade barring something big, and the latter state's crap that you may as well hold on to because you won't get anything back, and there's always the chance that he'l revert back to the former state (though that's highly unlikely now) and you'll have gotten scraps back for someone who revives his career elsewhere and it's Murphy/Turner producing big for someone ELSE all over again.

    The Mets are likely stuck with Harvey, and Harvey stuck with the Mets--he won't attract much attention between 3 surgeries and his PR issues this year...the MNF hangover in 2015 and the supermodels you can deal with somewhat when he's Comeback Player of the Year, when he's totally imploded, yeah, no one's touching that.

    And that's somewhat a shame--they may wait one more year to do it, but while I'm glad they didn't trade a pitcher during the 2015 run, Pauly's probably right and they WILL do so eventually, either of their own team-building volition or to get something back for someone before they lose them to free agency--and much as I liked Harvey, there's NO WAY you want the Mets to deal deGrom or Syndergaard at this point, and if Matz can stay healthy himself he'll be a better option than Harvey or Wheeler at this point. I'll defend their not trading him in 2015 all day (as their implosion this year shows, when you have a pennant shot, YOU GO FOR IT, and I don't know if they win the pennant without that full staff that year) but since then it's really turned into the nightmare scenario for Harvey and this team--

    Too damaged physically and PR-wise to trade, and not physically able to pitch in such a way that at least partially offset his PR problems.
    Your thoughts exactly?? No it isn't.

    You didtn want to trade him when he was healthy....now you don't because he isn't healthy. So basically you like him and don't want him traded - I get it for sure. I also had "that player" that I didn't want the Mets to let go of.

    He was in the SWEET SPOT for trading. December 2015 was that sweet spot. Under years of control, just pitched well in the post season, just had a huge blowout with the team/agent, and would have brought back a huge haul. Sweet spots don't get any sweeter than that. Again - the non sweet spot for you was - it was Harvey and there is no trading sweet spot for Harvey as far as you are concerned.

    I didn't say trade him during the 2015 playoff run. I said it after the 2015 season was complete. So you saying that I said he should be traded during 2015 season is erroneous.

    Now we wait until he is healthy, but what you are saying is (And hoping) Harvey finds it again - dons his Batman mask and again becomes the guy the Mets should keep.

    He has very little value right now, but that might all he ever is.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 07-12-2017, 07:19 AM.

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  • Shea Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

    He has no trade value now until he shows he's healthy and effective. If he's healthy and effective he'd have more value for the Mets than anything he could bring in return.
    ^My thoughts exactly. And that's why I've always felt the best option with Harvey has tended to be keeping him, even when (as is the case now) that's unpalatable in part--

    He's NEVER been in what we might call the "sweet spot of trading," good enough to move but not great enough to really potentially regret it. (Bruce is a perfect example--good enough to deal and get something decent back, but chances are it won't come back to bite us...dangerous as that statement always is for the Mets.)

    He's either been the Dark Knight (2013, 2015) or Flat Harvey (most of 2016, 2017 after his good start into mid-May or so.) I've always argued the former state's too good to trade barring something big, and the latter state's crap that you may as well hold on to because you won't get anything back, and there's always the chance that he'l revert back to the former state (though that's highly unlikely now) and you'll have gotten scraps back for someone who revives his career elsewhere and it's Murphy/Turner producing big for someone ELSE all over again.

    The Mets are likely stuck with Harvey, and Harvey stuck with the Mets--he won't attract much attention between 3 surgeries and his PR issues this year...the MNF hangover in 2015 and the supermodels you can deal with somewhat when he's Comeback Player of the Year, when he's totally imploded, yeah, no one's touching that.

    And that's somewhat a shame--they may wait one more year to do it, but while I'm glad they didn't trade a pitcher during the 2015 run, Pauly's probably right and they WILL do so eventually, either of their own team-building volition or to get something back for someone before they lose them to free agency--and much as I liked Harvey, there's NO WAY you want the Mets to deal deGrom or Syndergaard at this point, and if Matz can stay healthy himself he'll be a better option than Harvey or Wheeler at this point. I'll defend their not trading him in 2015 all day (as their implosion this year shows, when you have a pennant shot, YOU GO FOR IT, and I don't know if they win the pennant without that full staff that year) but since then it's really turned into the nightmare scenario for Harvey and this team--

    Too damaged physically and PR-wise to trade, and not physically able to pitch in such a way that at least partially offset his PR problems.

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  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post

    Pauly:

    Realistically, what could we get for the 2017 version? The question is do we try to get something or do we keep the current version for the next 18 months until he goes?

    I vote get what we can
    He has no trade value now until he shows he's healthy and effective. If he's healthy and effective he'd have more value for the Mets than anything he could bring in return.

    Leave a comment:


  • brooklynboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    No - I still disagree. The Mets had glaring shortcomings and the quickest most efficient way to fix them was to trade Harvey.

    I would not be singing a different tune as I said it back then without the benefit of the crystal ball.....now it seems like a no brainer, but in 2015 I was sure it was the right move.

    Harvey was the guy least likely to remain a Met - he should have been traded but like you said its all academic.
    Pauly:

    Realistically, what could we get for the 2017 version? The question is do we try to get something or do we keep the current version for the next 18 months until he goes?

    I vote get what we can

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post

    Unless you could've predicted the guy would have two more surgeries for a total of three in four years, with two being historic career-enders in TJS and Thoracic Outlet Surgery...

    It's 100% the "What if?" game at this point, but I'm willing to bet if Harvey doesn't have those injuries we're singing a different tune about him and the Mets' seasons the past two years. It's not just him, If this team were healthy I don't think you'd be so quick to break it apart to build a winner--we'd HAVE a contender. The trouble is the Mets are NEVER healthy. Literally more than half the team's been on the disabled list this season at this point. And it was this way with the previous batch of would-be Mets playoff teams, Wright and Reyes and Beltran and Johan (who I didn't realize was Hall-eligible this coming election season...wow...a couple more years and he might've had a really compelling case, too, but I digress) and so on...

    My point being that if the Mets were healthy/had been healthy, even with the distractions, I still maintain as I did in 2015 it WOULD be the better move to keep rather than deal a still-2015-vintage Harvey. This is an academic argument more than a practical one since 2015 Harvey's likely gone for good, I'm just saying. Would I listen to a deal? Sure. Just saying I don't think the chance of getting an offer that would be more valuable than that piece to this team that year would materialize.

    I maintain it WAS the right move not to deal him or any part of that staff during the 2015 run, even given the WS (give me 8 shutout WS innings ANY DAY...he will very likely get Buckner-ized a bit as the scapegoat of that game, and in fairness in true Harvey fashion he brought part of that on himself with the infamous "No way" moment, but you pitch like that and leave 2-1, I don't care if he was so hyped he cartwheeled to the mound in between innings, that's STILL a loss I'd blame more on a fresh Familia not getting 3 outs...in that game OR Game 1 where Harvey also pitched well.)

    All of which is to say I wish we still HAD a 2015-caliber Harvey to discuss dealing...and a 2015-caliber team to discuss period at this point...
    No - I still disagree. The Mets had glaring shortcomings and the quickest most efficient way to fix them was to trade Harvey.

    I would not be singing a different tune as I said it back then without the benefit of the crystal ball.....now it seems like a no brainer, but in 2015 I was sure it was the right move.

    Harvey was the guy least likely to remain a Met - he should have been traded but like you said its all academic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shea Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post

    I was told what an idiotic concept that was nearly two years ago. He could have brought back a boat load of talent.

    Now he couldn't bring back a row boat with a pine tar rag in it.
    Unless you could've predicted the guy would have two more surgeries for a total of three in four years, with two being historic career-enders in TJS and Thoracic Outlet Surgery...

    It's 100% the "What if?" game at this point, but I'm willing to bet if Harvey doesn't have those injuries we're singing a different tune about him and the Mets' seasons the past two years. It's not just him, If this team were healthy I don't think you'd be so quick to break it apart to build a winner--we'd HAVE a contender. The trouble is the Mets are NEVER healthy. Literally more than half the team's been on the disabled list this season at this point. And it was this way with the previous batch of would-be Mets playoff teams, Wright and Reyes and Beltran and Johan (who I didn't realize was Hall-eligible this coming election season...wow...a couple more years and he might've had a really compelling case, too, but I digress) and so on...

    My point being that if the Mets were healthy/had been healthy, even with the distractions, I still maintain as I did in 2015 it WOULD be the better move to keep rather than deal a still-2015-vintage Harvey. This is an academic argument more than a practical one since 2015 Harvey's likely gone for good, I'm just saying. Would I listen to a deal? Sure. Just saying I don't think the chance of getting an offer that would be more valuable than that piece to this team that year would materialize.

    I maintain it WAS the right move not to deal him or any part of that staff during the 2015 run, even given the WS (give me 8 shutout WS innings ANY DAY...he will very likely get Buckner-ized a bit as the scapegoat of that game, and in fairness in true Harvey fashion he brought part of that on himself with the infamous "No way" moment, but you pitch like that and leave 2-1, I don't care if he was so hyped he cartwheeled to the mound in between innings, that's STILL a loss I'd blame more on a fresh Familia not getting 3 outs...in that game OR Game 1 where Harvey also pitched well.)

    All of which is to say I wish we still HAD a 2015-caliber Harvey to discuss dealing...and a 2015-caliber team to discuss period at this point...

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by mandrake View Post
    Sandy Alderson on where Matt Harvey is in his recovery: "You mean where he is other than Page 6?" http://pagesix.com/tag/matt-harvey/

    What exactly is wrong with his arm , anyway? Doesn't prevent him bending the elbow?

    Sorry, for me the train has left the station. He won't bring back much, but Paul was right. After that stunt of running out to the mound as the Dark Knight in the 9th inning, the Mets should have traded him after the 2015 WS.
    I was told what an idiotic concept that was nearly two years ago. He could have brought back a boat load of talent.

    Now he couldn't bring back a row boat with a pine tar rag in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • mandrake
    replied
    Sandy Alderson on where Matt Harvey is in his recovery: "You mean where he is other than Page 6?" http://pagesix.com/tag/matt-harvey/

    What exactly is wrong with his arm , anyway? Doesn't prevent him bending the elbow?

    Sorry, for me the train has left the station. He won't bring back much, but Paul was right. After that stunt of running out to the mound as the Dark Knight in the 9th inning, the Mets should have traded him after the 2015 WS.

    Leave a comment:


  • brooklynboy
    replied
    I believe if they could, Harvey will be long gone by 2018. Issue is who wants him? With Boras as his agent, he'll land somewhere.

    Originally posted by Muncus Agruncus View Post
    He has the rest of this season and 2018 to figure it out. This season is pretty much shot so the Mets can afford to put him out there every fifth day and muck his way through 5 and two thirds. In 2018, maybe the Mets will be ready to win again. If Harvey hasn't figured anything out, then he might be the 5th starter to start the season or maybe even long relief.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muncus Agruncus
    replied
    Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post
    Agreed with the whole comment but I would respectfully add egotism on Harvey's part here..The issue here is what to do with him? His time in NY is limited but what next? A trade? to whom and for what?? You can't release him and you can't send him to the minors where he should have gone to in the first place to pitch himself into shape.
    He has the rest of this season and 2018 to figure it out. This season is pretty much shot so the Mets can afford to put him out there every fifth day and muck his way through 5 and two thirds. In 2018, maybe the Mets will be ready to win again. If Harvey hasn't figured anything out, then he might be the 5th starter to start the season or maybe even long relief.

    Leave a comment:

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