Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Mets are rebuilding (emphasis on the 'are')

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    The Reyes debacle gave a good indication of whether the Mets are actually rebuilding or not.

    Going into last year, with Wheeler and Harvey as the only top 100 prospects, experts rated the Mets farm system in the middle to lower half of all teams:

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/01...stem-15th.html

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/02...nd-in-mlb.html

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/03...tem-no-16.html

    Consensus is the last draft was meh to craptacular. The Mets drafted all their higher picks with an eye toward whether or not they'd sign for below slot. They didn't think their own second round pick was worth slot. What does that tell you about their selection process?

    Not sure if Harvey is considered a prospect or not anymore. If not the Mets' system's rankings could fall next year. I followed the progress of all the players you mentioned. Outside maybe Flores there are no highly regarded position players within 2 or 3 years of making the team. Nimmo's got a blue chip ceiling. Jury's out on Cecchini's ceiling: many analysts rate it not very high. After that there are no standouts.

    Alderson has acquired exactly one highly regarded prospect by trade in going on 3 years.

    Many of the young guys up this year require more work if they're ever going to be impact players. Some might be role players, but any minor league system can provide that. It doesn't constitute rebuilding.

    The problem, as usual, is lack of interest on the part of ownership in spending or winning. It is what it is.

    The point is no rebuilding team refuses to trade assets they don't intend on signing for prospects. No rebuilding team drafts mainly on signability. We've been watching this act for many years. This is not a rebuilding team.

    I am still waiting for the now 23 yr old super phenom F MART to save the franchise ! By the way , he did hit .237 this season in 41 games at Houston.
    Which puts him on par with Duda .239, Torres .230, Bay .165 (that was NOT a typo)...which makes me wonder, would any other MLB team even put Bay in the lineup?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
    You've dispassionately states a series of facts that have little to with whether we're rebuilding as a club. We've signed Nimmo, Fulmer, Cecchini, and Plawecki - which are all of our top picks. What exactly are you trying to tell me here? That we let one second-rounder go? Man, that must mean we're simply toiling at the bottom of the pit and not trying to progress to the top.



    I've been here for roughly two years now, and all you do is harp on the Wilpons. Every little opinion of your's is tainted with your distaste for the Wilpons. The bias here is clear, and I can smell it from ten miles away.



    You're posting half-assed facts like they actually mean anything to this conversation. We missed out on a few lower round prospects? We must not be rebuilding then. Do you not see all the rookies we're playing? How we're developing our system, not trading them away for veterans? Do you fail to see the progression of our top prospects? The evidence you posted is completely off-base, and there's nothing to refute.



    Proving my point again.

    You're trying to turn this into a Wilpon discussion - buddy, there's a thread on the Wilpons that you yourself created a year or two back.

    The Reyes debacle gave a good indication of whether the Mets are actually rebuilding or not.

    Going into last year, with Wheeler and Harvey as the only top 100 prospects, experts rated the Mets farm system in the middle to lower half of all teams:

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/01...stem-15th.html

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/02...nd-in-mlb.html

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/03...tem-no-16.html

    Consensus is the last draft was meh to craptacular. The Mets drafted all their higher picks with an eye toward whether or not they'd sign for below slot. They didn't think their own second round pick was worth slot. What does that tell you about their selection process?

    Not sure if Harvey is considered a prospect or not anymore. If not the Mets' system's rankings could fall next year. I followed the progress of all the players you mentioned. Outside maybe Flores there are no highly regarded position players within 2 or 3 years of making the team. Nimmo's got a blue chip ceiling. Jury's out on Cecchini's ceiling: many analysts rate it not very high. After that there are no standouts.

    Alderson has acquired exactly one highly regarded prospect by trade in going on 3 years.

    Many of the young guys up this year require more work if they're ever going to be impact players. Some might be role players, but any minor league system can provide that. It doesn't constitute rebuilding.

    The problem, as usual, is lack of interest on the part of ownership in spending or winning. It is what it is.

    The point is no rebuilding team refuses to trade assets they don't intend on signing for prospects. No rebuilding team drafts mainly on signability. We've been watching this act for many years. This is not a rebuilding team.

    Leave a comment:


  • CokeMachineGlow
    replied
    I've dispassionately stated a series of facts - evidence that this is not a rebuilding team.
    You've dispassionately states a series of facts that have little to with whether we're rebuilding as a club. We've signed Nimmo, Fulmer, Cecchini, and Plawecki - which are all of our top picks. What exactly are you trying to tell me here? That we let one second-rounder go? Man, that must mean we're simply toiling at the bottom of the pit and not trying to progress to the top.

    My opinion is based on facts and evidence, not bias.
    I've been here for roughly two years now, and all you do is harp on the Wilpons. Every little opinion of your's is tainted with your distaste for the Wilpons. The bias here is clear, and I can smell it from ten miles away.

    You don't dispute these facts and you've done nothing to refute this evidence. You've offered no persuasive evidence of your own this is a rebuilding team.
    You're posting half-assed facts like they actually mean anything to this conversation. We missed out on a few lower round prospects? We must not be rebuilding then. Do you not see all the rookies we're playing? How we're developing our system, not trading them away for veterans? Do you fail to see the progression of our top prospects? The evidence you posted is completely off-base, and there's nothing to refute.

    I'm not sure there's anyplace else for this conversation to go right now.
    Proving my point again.

    You're trying to turn this into a Wilpon discussion - buddy, there's a thread on the Wilpons that you yourself created a year or two back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
    You're biases prevent you from seeing the actual truth, but I guess we'll just leave it at that. I don't want this thread turning into a Wilpon thread.
    I've dispassionately stated a series of facts - evidence this is not a rebuilding team.

    My opinion is based on facts and evidence, not bias.

    You don't dispute these facts and you've done nothing to refute this evidence. You've offered no persuasive evidence of your own this is a rebuilding team.

    I'm not sure there's anyplace else for this conversation to go right now.

    I just dredged up a 3+ year old quote to shine a spotlight on someone else's wrongness on another thread. I'll be happy to do the same here in a couple years, when we're standing in the wreckage of this current "rebuild".

    Leave a comment:


  • CokeMachineGlow
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    Money doesn't seem to be an obstacle when Jeff Wilpon wants to beat the traffic by taking a helicopter to a Miami Heat game. Ownership just borrowed around a quarter billion dollars from SNY a couple years ago, paid themselves a fat dividend, and are in the process of doing the same thing again.

    In the meantime they're reaching for draft picks and declining to sign them when they ask to be paid slot. The Wilpons are looting the team and cutting corners wherever they can. This is not a rebuilding team. It's a patient afflicted with a parasite.
    You're biases prevent you from seeing the actual truth, but I guess we'll just leave it at that. I don't want this thread turning into a Wilpon thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
    I can't really say I understand the route Alderson took here, but your opinion seems valid. I can't possibly see any reason to hang onto Reyes other than to make a few bucks off of the fans. Alderson was most likely 'forced' to keep him here.



    Another valid point, but that doesn't necessarily mean we aren't rebuilding. History has shown that plenty of teams have failed to sign their first-second round picks - doesn't really mean much, other than the fact that we're cheap and have financial issues.



    We do have money issues, man.



    Again, that just means we're:

    A. Cheap
    B. Poor
    Money doesn't seem to be an obstacle when Jeff Wilpon wants to beat the traffic by taking a helicopter to a Miami Heat game. Ownership just borrowed around a quarter billion dollars from SNY a couple years ago, paid themselves a fat dividend, and are in the process of doing the same thing again.

    In the meantime they're reaching for draft picks and declining to sign them when they ask to be paid slot. The Wilpons are looting the team and cutting corners wherever they can. This is not a rebuilding team. It's a patient afflicted with a parasite.

    Leave a comment:


  • CokeMachineGlow
    replied
    1) dealt Reyes for prospects. If they could get Wheeler for Beltran they could have gotten more for Reyes in the middle of an MVP type season. They hung onto him to draw a few extra fans and make the Wilpons a few extra bucks.
    I can't really say I understand the route Alderson took here, but your opinion seems valid. I can't possibly see any reason to hang onto Reyes other than to make a few bucks off of the fans. Alderson was most likely 'forced' to keep him here.

    2) signed their second round pick this year. Instead, after failing to lowball him into signing for below slot, they declined to sign him.
    Another valid point, but that doesn't necessarily mean we aren't rebuilding. History has shown that plenty of teams have failed to sign their first-second round picks - doesn't really mean much, other than the fact that we're cheap and have financial issues.

    3) As usual they reached for picks, paying below slot for all their picks in the first few rounds.
    We do have money issues, man.

    ) They signed the lowest percentage of their draft picks of any team in the division this past year.
    Again, that just means we're:

    A. Cheap
    B. Poor

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
    Anything otherwise is blatantly false.

    I feel the need to inform the posters of BBF-Mets, seeing as most of you believe contrarily.
    If they were rebuilding they would have:

    1) dealt Reyes for prospects. If they could get Wheeler for Beltran they could have gotten more for Reyes in the middle of an MVP type season. They hung onto him to draw a few extra fans and make the Wilpons a few extra bucks.

    2) signed their second round pick this year. Instead, after failing to lowball him into signing for below slot, they declined to sign him.

    3) As usual they reached for picks, paying below slot for all their picks in the first few rounds.

    4) They signed the lowest percentage of their draft picks of any team in the division this past year.

    What they're doing is getting rid of anyone who gets a decent salary, which isn't "rebuilding" - it's dismantling.

    It's surprising some people haven't noticed this by now.

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    I agree about focus on the post not the poster.....but .....Strawman has infected this board and many threads with his anti Alderson rhetoric for two years. Every thing that goes wrong goes back to Alderson. Its silly and felt I needed to post that.
    I fully understand.

    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    Milla - you know that I'm no paparazzi. That's an unfair charge, those are celebrity trailing gossip hounds - I wouldn't cross the street to meet a celeb, including ballplayers. (I might cross for Cleon Jones) but that's it.

    Some of my best friends are journalists. Dont kill the messenger.
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    Paparazzi is a bit strong, but Strawman even you have to admit...which you did...you have more of media tilt than a player tilt. Calling out a GM before his business cards are finished was a bit "paparazzi-ish"...No? To me this game is all about the players.
    I felt these two posts warranted reposting.

    Straw, some of my best friends are firefighters. Does that mean they're incapable of starting fires? Sometimes the messenger is the creator of the messages. For instance, in the case of the Ike story, no one, including Alderson (who, although you say is MIA, appeared on last night's telecast speaking quite candidly), knows who the original source was. My guess, albeit I could be mistaken (hence the word "guess"), it was either one of the millions of bloggers and tweetsters, or the writer himself.

    We can't believe everything we read.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    Milla - you know that I'm no paparazzi. That's an unfair charge, those are celebrity trailing gossip hounds - I wouldn't cross the street to meet a celeb, including ballplayers. (I might cross for Cleon Jones) but that's it.

    Some of my best friends are journalists. Dont kill the messenger.
    Paparazzi is a bit strong, but Strawman even you have to admit...which you did...you have more of media tilt than a player tilt. Calling out a GM before his business cards are finished was a bit "paparazzi-ish"...No? To me this game is all about the players.

    Leave a comment:


  • Strawman
    replied
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post
    As often as I say "focus on the post, not the poster," it'd be against my better judgement to condone this post. ...But I wholly agree with it.
    Milla - you know that I'm no paparazzi. That's an unfair charge, those are celebrity trailing gossip hounds - I wouldn't cross the street to meet a celeb, including ballplayers. (I might cross for Cleon Jones) but that's it.

    Some of my best friends are journalists. Dont kill the messenger.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post
    As often as I say "focus on the post, not the poster," it'd be against my better judgement to condone this post. ...But I wholly agree with it.
    I agree about focus on the post not the poster.....but .....Strawman has infected this board and many threads with his anti Alderson rhetoric for two years. Every thing that goes wrong goes back to Alderson. Its silly and felt I needed to post that.

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
    If you have read one of the other threads on this forum where Strawman states that players are "lunkheads" you will see his motives.

    Strawman is a paparazzi loving media type. Which explains his hatred for Alderson, and his "fire Sandy Alderson thread", as Milla said, before he sat in his chair. Strawman has been a contributor to this board no doubt, but on another level he has really tried to stir the pot. Paparazzi style. His starting the Alderson thread is the equivlant of the Weekly World News headline "Flying Wolf Boy Attacks Elvis on Mars". Both have the same validity.

    He likes playing GM upto a point. That point is where the actual details come into play. He loves saying "Alderson did nothing at the deadline". I have asked him numerous times to give me something he would have done. I didnt ask to put him on the spot, but maybe actual start a discussion on the trade. Maybe Hairston for Broxton? Anything. Does he know who Broxton is? Instead I got "I will leave that upto the WFAN callers". So in true paparazzi style he complains about the GM, but on a forum that is built on discussion he offers none. Just fire the guy....because he wore white after Labor Day...what the hell.

    Now I am related to Alderson because I refuse to blame someone for doing a bad job that wasnt given to the tools to do a good one. He has been blamed for putting a shoddy pen together. Which is true the pen didnt perform. Again I asked Joe Paparazzi...did you complain about this pen in February? The answer is no, but Joe Paparazzi waited in the high weeds and waited for something to fail so he can post it on here and say "see I told you this guy sucks".

    Bullpens are so fragile year to year that what is great this year can fall apart next and vica-versa. We have all seen it happen.

    Question for you Joe Paparazzi - I dont see you posting anything about Jason Bay. You know who that is...that miracle that your boy Omoron Minaya spent a lot of money on. You wont find anything negative that I post about Bay either, because although he looks finished...I root for him.

    Come out of the bushes with your camera and pad.....we know your there.
    As often as I say "focus on the post, not the poster," it'd be against my better judgement to condone this post. ...But I wholly agree with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paulypal
    replied
    Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
    Paul's "critical eye" helps him see the truth - not these delusions that you turn towards, Straw.

    Milla, is there any way to prevent certain users from posting in your thread, or does the ignore feature do that? I want to have a discussion - not a fight about Strawman's obsessive hate for Alderson.
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post
    lol ... I love facetiousness. Short of suspension, there's no way to stop anyone from posting anywhere, and Straw certainly doesn't qualify for even a warning, much less suspension. By the same token, though, I've found that even the Ignore feature justs makes us wonder what the ignored poster posts. You're welcome to use it, of course, but I've yet to know anyone who doesn't peek anyway.

    However, I do agree that this shouldn't be another "Sandy Alderson thread." Unfortunately, Straw's been on Sandy's case since the day he was hired, before he had even sat down in his new office chair, so it's no surprise to me (or probably anyone else) that he continues to slam him.



    Actively? I thought you said he's been inactive. ...And how can anyone convince you that his moves (or lack thereof) are all at the behest of the Wilpons? When will you realize his hands are tied? The one thing with which I agree is that Reyes should've been traded before the end of last season. That, imo, is the only bad move (or non-move as the case may be) he's made since he took the job. Otherwise, I think he's been doing what he can with what he has to work with. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And I'm personally not sold on your assertion that you don't hate him. As I said, you've made it ostentatiously clear since the day he was hired; before he'd even had a chance to make a move.

    Anyway, the topic of this thread is about how the Mets are in rebuilding mode; not about how much or little Alderson's done. Granted, Sandy's currently part of the rebuilding equation, but his name doesn't have to be a part of every post regarding it.

    If you have read one of the other threads on this forum where Strawman states that players are "lunkheads" you will see his motives.

    Strawman is a paparazzi loving media type. Which explains his hatred for Alderson, and his "fire Sandy Alderson thread", as Milla said, before he sat in his chair. Strawman has been a contributor to this board no doubt, but on another level he has really tried to stir the pot. Paparazzi style. His starting the Alderson thread is the equivlant of the Weekly World News headline "Flying Wolf Boy Attacks Elvis on Mars". Both have the same validity.

    He likes playing GM upto a point. That point is where the actual details come into play. He loves saying "Alderson did nothing at the deadline". I have asked him numerous times to give me something he would have done. I didnt ask to put him on the spot, but maybe actual start a discussion on the trade. Maybe Hairston for Broxton? Anything. Does he know who Broxton is? Instead I got "I will leave that upto the WFAN callers". So in true paparazzi style he complains about the GM, but on a forum that is built on discussion he offers none. Just fire the guy....because he wore white after Labor Day...what the hell.

    Now I am related to Alderson because I refuse to blame someone for doing a bad job that wasnt given to the tools to do a good one. He has been blamed for putting a shoddy pen together. Which is true the pen didnt perform. Again I asked Joe Paparazzi...did you complain about this pen in February? The answer is no, but Joe Paparazzi waited in the high weeds and waited for something to fail so he can post it on here and say "see I told you this guy sucks".

    Bullpens are so fragile year to year that what is great this year can fall apart next and vica-versa. We have all seen it happen.

    Question for you Joe Paparazzi - I dont see you posting anything about Jason Bay. You know who that is...that miracle that your boy Omoron Minaya spent a lot of money on. You wont find anything negative that I post about Bay either, because although he looks finished...I root for him.

    Come out of the bushes with your camera and pad.....we know your there.

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    Originally posted by CokeMachineGlow View Post
    Paul's "critical eye" helps him see the truth - not these delusions that you turn towards, Straw.

    Milla, is there any way to prevent certain users from posting in your thread, or does the ignore feature do that? I want to have a discussion - not a fight about Strawman's obsessive hate for Alderson.
    lol ... I love facetiousness. Short of suspension, there's no way to stop anyone from posting anywhere, and Straw certainly doesn't qualify for even a warning, much less suspension. By the same token, though, I've found that even the Ignore feature justs makes us wonder what the ignored poster posts. You're welcome to use it, of course, but I've yet to know anyone who doesn't peek anyway.

    However, I do agree that this shouldn't be another "Sandy Alderson thread." Unfortunately, Straw's been on Sandy's case since the day he was hired, before he had even sat down in his new office chair, so it's no surprise to me (or probably anyone else) that he continues to slam him.

    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    "Delusions" - like the Mets record since All Star break? I must be dreaming it. Or the long list of moves Alderson made to try and improve this team? All in my head.

    I don't hate Sandy Alderson. I merely think he's an incompetent baseball general manager, and actively contributing to ownership running the franchise into the cold, dead earth.
    Actively? I thought you said he's been inactive. ...And how can anyone convince you that his moves (or lack thereof) are all at the behest of the Wilpons? When will you realize his hands are tied? The one thing with which I agree is that Reyes should've been traded before the end of last season. That, imo, is the only bad move (or non-move as the case may be) he's made since he took the job. Otherwise, I think he's been doing what he can with what he has to work with. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And I'm personally not sold on your assertion that you don't hate him. As I said, you've made it ostentatiously clear since the day he was hired; before he'd even had a chance to make a move.

    Anyway, the topic of this thread is about how the Mets are in rebuilding mode; not about how much or little Alderson's done. Granted, Sandy's currently part of the rebuilding equation, but his name doesn't have to be a part of every post regarding it.

    Leave a comment:

Ad Widget

Collapse
Working...
X