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  • Strawman
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben Grimm View Post
    Sorry guys. I didn't mean to start a fight about Tejada. I was simply stating... as an outsider, that he simply doesn't lend much to make me think he'll prosper much more than a utility player at his current rates. If he changes that next year, then I'll be on board. But from the samples I have, he's simply a rather ordinary player that coulld be easily replaced if he keeps going with the flow.
    I agree and I like Ruben too - but he's no Reyes.

    Milla, I'll give you Elster, Maz and Foster being less important to their team - but Teufel....he's about on the Tejada level in terms of importance, at least in the same ballpark. I just think you're way overrating "young Ruben" as Hernandez likes to say...

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben Grimm
    replied
    Sorry guys. I didn't mean to start a fight about Tejada. I was simply stating... as an outsider, that he simply doesn't lend much to make me think he'll prosper much more than a utility player at his current rates. If he changes that next year, then I'll be on board. But from the samples I have, he's simply a rather ordinary player that coulld be easily replaced if he keeps going with the flow.

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    Better fielder? Not sure where that comes from. He doesn't have as much range, or the arm. He's a good fielder, no doubt. And Reyes is just shy of GG territory. But I think that overrates young Ruben's ability. He's a nice player, possibly even a good one.

    You'd really rather have Tejada - who can't run, is a decent singles hitter, has more limited range, less arm, less power, less of a catalyst - than Jose Reyes? I don't think any GM would make that choice. Now sure, if you're the Royal or Pirates or some other small market team, you can't afford Jose Reyes. Sadly, Queens is now a small market. So I get that. But it's pathetic.

    As for Loria, the right moves are canning the front office and quite possibly the manager - the Wilpons should make the same moves!

    On the '86 Mets, these players had more talent than your future All Star, Mr. Tejada:

    Carter
    Strawberry
    Hernandez
    Mookie
    Gooden
    Darling
    Ojeda
    Fernandez
    Knight
    Foster (!)
    Elster
    Magadan
    Backman
    Teufel
    Dykstra
    McDowell
    Orosco
    Aguilera
    Mitchell
    Hojo
    Mazzilli

    But yes, Tejada may be better than Santana!
    Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, which is exactly what that list is. I opine that he's more valuable to this team than both Elster and Teufel were to theirs, as well as Maz and Foster.

    Yes, for the price of a big apple, I'd rather have Tejada than Reyes. Reyes is nowhere near worth what he's being paid. Tejada's worth more than what he's being paid. I also think he has better range, and better defensive instincts. Point in case: Reyes caught a liner the other day and should've easily beaten Murphy back to second. What was he, asleep? I also recall José throwing away more balls to first than Rubén has. Therefore, I think he has a better arm, even if only due to his accuracy. And the way I've seen it, I think they have about equal defensive range.

    As for being a catalyst, yeah, I can see by the Marlins' record how much impact Reyes has on the team's chemistry. [/end sarcasm]

    And don't make it out as if I'm calling Tejada a future all-star. I never said that, hinted at it, nor do I think it. I merely think he offers better bang for the buck.

    Leave a comment:


  • Strawman
    replied
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post
    So now you've got a crystal ball? Straw, I realize you'll be bemoaning the loss of Reyes until the day he retires, but I believe you're understating the player who took his place. Santana was nowhere near 20th in talent on the Mets' '86 team. He played more games at short than any other Met for three straight years, '86 being sandwiched between '85 and '87. Who knows, had they gone with him for more years instead of Elster, they may have won in '88. We'll never know, but anything's possible. Tejada is NOT half the player Reyes is. He's more than half. Much more than half. He may not have as many "tools," but he's proven to be a better fielder and nearly as good a contact hitter. And Tejada may be Santana, but that just goes back to what I wrote about being only four or five players away from real contention. Personally, I'd rather have Tejada than Reyes, especially considering not getting as much value for the dollar. And Rubén doesn't make nearly as much "noise." Imho, you give Reyes way too much WAR credit.

    As for Wright being gone as a real possibility and that he "wants to leave," I'm not sure where you got that from. Perhaps it's the same source that made "news" with Davis' late nights painting NYC red?

    And how do you know Loria will make the "right moves"? Man, that crystal ball must be of a brilliant sheen.
    Better fielder? Not sure where that comes from. He doesn't have as much range, or the arm. He's a good fielder, no doubt. And Reyes is just shy of GG territory. But I think that overrates young Ruben's ability. He's a nice player, possibly even a good one.

    You'd really rather have Tejada - who can't run, is a decent singles hitter, has more limited range, less arm, less power, less of a catalyst - than Jose Reyes? I don't think any GM would make that choice. Now sure, if you're the Royal or Pirates or some other small market team, you can't afford Jose Reyes. Sadly, Queens is now a small market. So I get that. But it's pathetic.

    As for Loria, the right moves are canning the front office and quite possibly the manager - the Wilpons should make the same moves!

    On the '86 Mets, these players had more talent than your future All Star, Mr. Tejada:

    Carter
    Strawberry
    Hernandez
    Mookie
    Gooden
    Darling
    Ojeda
    Fernandez
    Knight
    Foster (!)
    Elster
    Magadan
    Backman
    Teufel
    Dykstra
    McDowell
    Orosco
    Aguilera
    Mitchell
    Hojo
    Mazzilli

    But yes, Tejada may be better than Santana!

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    Wow - Milla, we couldn't disagree more. Tejada is half the player Reyes is, even this year, even with Reyes's slow start. He's much more of an impact player. Tejada *is* Santana - who was about 20th on the '86 Mets in talent, maybe? I mean sure, if you have the '86 Mets, I'd take Ruben in a heart beat - he makes the plays, has limited range and no speed, decent situational bat. You can hit him 8th no problem, occasionally second.

    I like the Fish over the Mets if Wright's gone (and that's a real possibility not just because they may not be able to sign him but because he wants to leave and who blames him) - Stanton and Reyes beats Ike/Murphy, and frankly the Marlins are firing the guys in the positions the Mets ought to fire. So hard as it is to say this - and man it sucks - Loria will actually make the right moves the Wilpons won't.
    So now you've got a crystal ball? Straw, I realize you'll be bemoaning the loss of Reyes until the day he retires, but I believe you're understating the player who took his place. Santana was nowhere near 20th in talent on the Mets' '86 team. He played more games at short than any other Met for three straight years, '86 being sandwiched between '85 and '87. Who knows, had they gone with him for more years instead of Elster, they may have won in '88. We'll never know, but anything's possible. Tejada is NOT half the player Reyes is. He's more than half. Much more than half. He may not have as many "tools," but he's proven to be a better fielder and nearly as good a contact hitter. And Tejada may be Santana, but that just goes back to what I wrote about being only four or five players away from real contention. Personally, I'd rather have Tejada than Reyes, especially considering not getting as much value for the dollar. And Rubén doesn't make nearly as much "noise." Imho, you give Reyes way too much WAR credit.

    As for Wright being gone as a real possibility and that he "wants to leave," I'm not sure where you got that from. Perhaps it's the same source that made "news" with Davis' late nights painting NYC red?

    And how do you know Loria will make the "right moves"? Man, that crystal ball must be of a brilliant sheen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Strawman
    replied
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post
    I disagree with the bold, and that's not what I was intimating. What I meant was that in 2012, I think he's one of the top five Mets. If Tejada is one of the top five Mets this year, then, in my eyes, that means they're only four or five players short of contention. If you recall, the Mets won it all with Santana at short.



    Wright will be here next year. Mark my words. And frankly, the loss of Reyes to Miami has only gone to show how weak the Mets were even with Reyes, and that he could be replaced with someone as capable (if not more) of playing shortstop without missing him all that much, especially since his replacement is hitting close to .300 for the season. And after all, look where the Marlins are with him.

    I think more depends on what goes on with the Marlins during the offseason than with the Mets. Right now, they're uninspired. The Mets aren't. And I'll take Collins over Guillen any day (even if I think Backman could push better buttons and be a better overall leader). Now, all indications show that Guillen (and most of the Marlins' management, including the president) will be gone next season. Collins will probably still be the Mets' manager. If Loria has anything to "fix," it's his leadership in the dugout. Imho, all the Mets truly need to do with their leadership on the field is replace Dan Warthen (and take Teufel off the thirdbase line).

    I don't think Wright's as much a part of the equation as all that, 'cause he'll be here. I think it mainly depends on what both poorly run teams do in the offseason. Right now, however, I think the Mets have the edge. Money can't buy me love.

    An interesting topic, though, indeed.
    Wow - Milla, we couldn't disagree more. Tejada is half the player Reyes is, even this year, even with Reyes's slow start. He's much more of an impact player. Tejada *is* Santana - who was about 20th on the '86 Mets in talent, maybe? I mean sure, if you have the '86 Mets, I'd take Ruben in a heart beat - he makes the plays, has limited range and no speed, decent situational bat. You can hit him 8th no problem, occasionally second.

    I like the Fish over the Mets if Wright's gone (and that's a real possibility not just because they may not be able to sign him but because he wants to leave and who blames him) - Stanton and Reyes beats Ike/Murphy, and frankly the Marlins are firing the guys in the positions the Mets ought to fire. So hard as it is to say this - and man it sucks - Loria will actually make the right moves the Wilpons won't.

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    Wow - Tejada. Yeah, if he's one of the top 5 Mets then the team truly is in trouble. Nice player. Not even close to an All Star. And I like him!
    I disagree with the bold, and that's not what I was intimating. What I meant was that in 2012, I think he's one of the top five Mets. If Tejada is one of the top five Mets this year, then, in my eyes, that means they're only four or five players short of contention. If you recall, the Mets won it all with Santana at short.

    Depending on Wright, the Marlins roster heading to spring may be a hair stronger than the Mets - but it's an interesting discussion of the NL East's two most poorly managed franchises.
    Wright will be here next year. Mark my words. And frankly, the loss of Reyes to Miami has only gone to show how weak the Mets were even with Reyes, and that he could be replaced with someone as capable (if not more) of playing shortstop without missing him all that much, especially since his replacement is hitting close to .300 for the season. And after all, look where the Marlins are with him.

    I think more depends on what goes on with the Marlins during the offseason than with the Mets. Right now, they're uninspired. The Mets aren't. And I'll take Collins over Guillen any day (even if I think Backman could push better buttons and be a better overall leader). Now, all indications show that Guillen (and most of the Marlins' management, including the president) will be gone next season. Collins will probably still be the Mets' manager. If Loria has anything to "fix," it's his leadership in the dugout. Imho, all the Mets truly need to do with their leadership on the field is replace Dan Warthen (and take Teufel off the thirdbase line).

    I don't think Wright's as much a part of the equation as all that, 'cause he'll be here. I think it mainly depends on what both poorly run teams do in the offseason. Right now, however, I think the Mets have the edge. Money can't buy me love.

    An interesting topic, though, indeed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Strawman
    replied
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post
    I disagree about Tejada, Ben. In fact, I consider him one of the top five mvp's on the team. ...at least from what I've seen this season.

    As for the OP, I'm leaving Wright's uncertainty out of this, if only because there's another thread in which to discuss that. The Marlins may replace the bulk of their management, but that's no guarantee they've do better next year. Miami invested heavily before this season, then dealt away a chunk of the team at the deadline. Loria says, "I will fix this," but he's offered no specifics.

    Then again, the Mets have salary issues. This is not to say that a winning team can't be assembled without a high payroll, but the Mets, imho, need to improve their outfield, bullpen, and backstop. If they do that, I think they stand a better chance than the Marlines to contend in 2013. If not, I'll consider it a wash.
    Wow - Tejada. Yeah, if he's one of the top 5 Mets then the team truly is in trouble. Nice player. Not even close to an All Star. And I like him!

    Depending on Wright, the Marlins roster heading to spring may be a hair stronger than the Mets - but it's an interesting discussion of the NL East's two most poorly managed franchises.

    Leave a comment:


  • milladrive
    replied
    I disagree about Tejada, Ben. In fact, I consider him one of the top five mvp's on the team. ...at least from what I've seen this season.

    As for the OP, I'm leaving Wright's uncertainty out of this, if only because there's another thread in which to discuss that. The Marlins may replace the bulk of their management, but that's no guarantee they've do better next year. Miami invested heavily before this season, then dealt away a chunk of the team at the deadline. Loria says, "I will fix this," but he's offered no specifics.

    Then again, the Mets have salary issues. This is not to say that a winning team can't be assembled without a high payroll, but the Mets, imho, need to improve their outfield, bullpen, and backstop. If they do that, I think they stand a better chance than the Marlines to contend in 2013. If not, I'll consider it a wash.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben Grimm
    replied
    Like the OP mentioned, both teams have some glaring holes.

    For the Mets, what happened to their offense? Other than Wright, every other hitter took a step back (in some cases two steps) from last season. Was last year a fluke with players hitting above their potential or is this season going to be the outlier?

    I think the Wright situation plays well in the Mets favor. Sure, they'll pick up his option for '13 and that will give them a season to see if Wilmer Flores can take over the position while he's in AA. The other option is to keep Flores playing at 2B as an above-average hitting 2B if they do intend to extend Wright.

    I don't know about you guys, but is there any less-exciting young everyday player than Ruben Tejada? I mean he has zero power and zero speed on the paths. There are players in the game who only hit a few HRs a year (Pierre, Podsednik, Bonaficio, Altuve, etc), but they do at least have 30+ SB potential and the ability to turn singles into doubles, doubles into triples. This kid does neither and unless his glove is the second coming of Ozzie Smith, his tenure in MLB will be short-lived IMO.

    For the Marlins, they have the best overall player between the two teams in Stanton. In two years they should have both Christian Yelich to play CF and Jose Fernandez in their rotation. Most people know who Yelich is, but Fernandez was sick this season as a 19/20 year old pitching in High-A ball.

    14-1, 1.75 ERA, 134 IP, 158 K, 35 BB, .0925 WHIP, 10.6 K/9

    Very nice and Miami's had a knack of developing pitchers.

    I think both teams can bounce back in a few years, but between the two I kind of lean towards Miami if only because I see more high-ceiling talent that could be on the field by 2014.

    Leave a comment:


  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    Not talking about what's past with the Marlins or this disastrous, pathetic season - talking about talent levels going into 2013 spring. (No question, the Marlins are horrid - but at least they'll dismiss their incompetent front office this off-season, unlike the Mets).
    For years, the Mets were stuck with the Braves. Then for 5 years in a row it was Philly. Now it looks like the Nats could stick around for a while, and those pesky Braves don't seem to be going away. I don't see the Marlins being a contender.

    Leave a comment:


  • Strawman
    replied
    Not talking about what's past with the Marlins or this disastrous, pathetic season - talking about talent levels going into 2013 spring. (No question, the Marlins are horrid - but at least they'll dismiss their incompetent front office this off-season, unlike the Mets).

    Leave a comment:


  • ol' aches and pains
    replied
    I hadn't seen the Marlins much this year, and was wondering how they could be worse than the Mets at this point. So I watched last night's game. Now I know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blue387
    replied
    Have you seen the Marlins season and ownership?

    Leave a comment:


  • Shea Knight
    replied
    I'd take the Mets...

    The Mets failed with a lack of spending, and those pieces they had overachieved for half a season.

    The Marlins failed with big spending, and those pieces they bought underachieved all season.

    So I think that while the Marlins have a better roster on paper, the Mets have a better chance to ACTUALLY improve down the line.

    Leave a comment:

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