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  • #16
    Not a fan of the deal. I liked Granderson to some extent because he's not super old and can bounce back. Colon, recall, had totally fallen apart from 2006 to 2010 and 2013 was the best or second best year of his career, something he will probably not even get close to repeating. Plus, he's old. I predict 10 wins and a 4.50 ERA next year.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mandrake View Post
      So how do you know this? As a GM, his last winning season was 1992. Imagine him as GM of the Yankees? Imagine him fired?

      Omar's Mets averaged 85 wins a year. Sandy averages 75 wins with the Mets so far. as in 77, 74, 74. If he is the smartest guy in the room, then I don't know why he has not won a single World Series with ANY team, even with big budgets, since 1989.

      Since 2000. Red Sox 3, Giants 2, Cardinals 2, Yankees 2, Angels-White Sox-Phillies-Diamond Backs-Marlins all with one. If Sandy is the smartest guy in the room, I'd hate to see how many games the Mets would win if they hired dopes.
      I will stand by my comments. Using the Yankee model only proves my point. How difficult can it be to run a business when you can always spend more to make up for your mistakes? I do think it is hard to dispute that it is tougher to develop a team with a limited budget, especially when a large % of that budget is taken up by players with large salaries who are either hurt or not performing. Going forward, those players are almost off the books (still some for Johan/Bay, but not enough to cripple them). There is plenty of precedent for the opinion that 90 million spent wisely is better than 170 million spent foolishly. But then again, who cares, its not my money!!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Strawman View Post
        He will be injured while batting/bunting or running, and spend significant time on the DL. Too easy a prediction to make!
        Maybe, but I guess age and condition doesn't matter as your guy - Reyes - in his prime spent a ton of time on the DL. That also was way too easy a prediction to make.

        Time will tell. I like the signing for two years.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
          Not a fan of the deal. I liked Granderson to some extent because he's not super old and can bounce back. Colon, recall, had totally fallen apart from 2006 to 2010 and 2013 was the best or second best year of his career, something he will probably not even get close to repeating. Plus, he's old. I predict 10 wins and a 4.50 ERA next year.
          Ok - so who should they have signed or traded for? You have identified what you feel is a problem, but what is your solution?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
            I will stand by my comments. Using the Yankee model only proves my point. How difficult can it be to run a business when you can always spend more to make up for your mistakes? I do think it is hard to dispute that it is tougher to develop a team with a limited budget, especially when a large % of that budget is taken up by players with large salaries who are either hurt or not performing. Going forward, those players are almost off the books (still some for Johan/Bay, but not enough to cripple them). There is plenty of precedent for the opinion that 90 million spent wisely is better than 170 million spent foolishly. But then again, who cares, its not my money!!
            Just by this post I can see that you feel inferior to the Yankees, or you have been conditioned to feel that way. Wilpon did a great job on his fan base.

            Just a little hint here - There is no reason why the Mets shouldn't be able to outspend their mistakes. Wilpon chooses not to.

            Another thing - Met fans wear this low budget team thing as a badge of honor. It is so anti-Yankee that the Met fans that hate the Yankees just eat it up. "Look at our home grown team - it sucks - but at least we didn't spend a lot". When Met fans say they are glad the Mets don't follow the "Yankee model" I laugh because the Yanks have made the playoffs 16 of the last 18 years.....and the Mets? 3 times?

            Spending big money on players comes with a risk, but that risk must be taken on some level. Yes spending wisely is pretty much a no brainer, BUT todays money spent wisely doesn't guarantee it is that way tomorrow as you cant predict injuries etc.

            The Met fan loves that 20/20 hindsight and then they point to Bay/Johan contracts and say "see what happens when you spend big money".

            Step this way folks so you can have your "Wilpon we don't want to spend like the Yankees brain chip put in your head". Available at the Shake Shack, and in the Jackie Robinson Rotunda.

            Comment


            • #21
              Build from within. Perhaps this time around will be different, but the Mets seem to have a keen sense of signing players who are on their way out, even though before joining the team they were doing alright.

              I'm cynical with this squad, I do admit. The Mets seem to have *something* about them that makes a lot - if not most - of their "great" signings turn out to be duds or disappointing.

              But if I had to sign anybody, I might have tried Bronson Arroyo. He's been more consistent these past five-six seasons, as opposed to Colon who is really riding a wave of one excellent and two very good years. As I said earlier, Colon was horrible from 2006 to 2010. At his age, a return to that level is unfortunately not out of the question.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                Build from within. Perhaps this time around will be different, but the Mets seem to have a keen sense of signing players who are on their way out, even though before joining the team they were doing alright.

                I'm cynical with this squad, I do admit. The Mets seem to have *something* about them that makes a lot - if not most - of their "great" signings turn out to be duds or disappointing.

                But if I had to sign anybody, I might have tried Bronson Arroyo. He's been more consistent these past five-six seasons, as opposed to Colon who is really riding a wave of one excellent and two very good years. As I said earlier, Colon was horrible from 2006 to 2010. At his age, a return to that level is unfortunately not out of the question.
                Cowtipper - Bronson Arroyo is going to cost more $ per year for more years. The Mets already announced that Arroyo is out of their league. So you cant shop for a Mercedes with Kia money. I also would have liked Arroyo, and Choo instead of Granderson, but ....Mercedes/Kia.

                Also I love when pitchers come from the AL to the NL. Arroyo had a 3.79 ERA in the NL - what do you think that translates to in the AL? Over 4 easy.
                Last edited by Paulypal; 12-13-2013, 06:36 AM.

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                • #23
                  Guess that's why I'm only a fantasy owner. Still, not a big fan of the Colon signing - perhaps it would have been wiser to save that money for next year or spend it on an offensive asset like a shortstop when there were still some good ones available. The remaining SP pool is weak, I understand, and of the remaining pitchers Colon was one of the best options available, but I'm not confident signing him was the right choice at this time.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                    Cowtipper - Bronson Arroyo is going to cost more $ per year for more years. The Mets already announced that Arroyo is out of their league. So you cant shop for a Mercedes with Kia money. I also would have liked Arroyo, and Choo instead of Granderson, but ....Mercedes/Kia.

                    Also I love when pitchers come from the AL to the NL. Arroyo had a 3.79 ERA in the NL - what do you think that translates to in the AL? Over 4 easy.
                    I would have tried to get David Price. I would have given up Wheeler and Duda or Davis, and maybe a bit more if it could land Price. (Montero?)

                    Wheeler may become a very good pitcher. At the age of 28 Price already has had a 20-5 season at the age of 26 and a 19-6 record at the age of 24. So...he has done it....not 'potentially' like the Mets keep promoting.

                    With young pitching it's a crap shoot. Didn't fans have Stephen Strasburg just about in the Hall of Fame. He's only 24 and he might get to Cooperstown, but that's a very big "might".

                    Tim Lincecum at ages 24-25 looked a whole lot better than he does at age 28-29.

                    I wouldn't be shocked if Colon spends considerable DL time over the next 2 years and ends up 15-15 or such. Look at 2006-2012...seven seasons of work. 2013 seems very fluky to me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mandrake View Post
                      I would have tried to get David Price. I would have given up Wheeler and Duda or Davis, and maybe a bit more if it could land Price. (Montero?)

                      Wheeler may become a very good pitcher. At the age of 28 Price already has had a 20-5 season at the age of 26 and a 19-6 record at the age of 24. So...he has done it....not 'potentially' like the Mets keep promoting.

                      With young pitching it's a crap shoot. Didn't fans have Stephen Strasburg just about in the Hall of Fame. He's only 24 and he might get to Cooperstown, but that's a very big "might".

                      Tim Lincecum at ages 24-25 looked a whole lot better than he does at age 28-29.

                      I wouldn't be shocked if Colon spends considerable DL time over the next 2 years and ends up 15-15 or such. Look at 2006-2012...seven seasons of work. 2013 seems very fluky to me.
                      Couple of things. First it may take more than Wheeler & another guy that sucks to get Price. Second - I am not sold on Price being the ace he was. Its going to have to be a sign and trade, and his contract his going to be huge. In 2013 his ERA jumped almost a full 1.00. His K's were down considerably as was his velocity.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                        Just by this post I can see that you feel inferior to the Yankees, or you have been conditioned to feel that way. Wilpon did a great job on his fan base.

                        Just a little hint here - There is no reason why the Mets shouldn't be able to outspend their mistakes. Wilpon chooses not to.

                        Another thing - Met fans wear this low budget team thing as a badge of honor. It is so anti-Yankee that the Met fans that hate the Yankees just eat it up. "Look at our home grown team - it sucks - but at least we didn't spend a lot". When Met fans say they are glad the Mets don't follow the "Yankee model" I laugh because the Yanks have made the playoffs 16 of the last 18 years.....and the Mets? 3 times?

                        Spending big money on players comes with a risk, but that risk must be taken on some level. Yes spending wisely is pretty much a no brainer, BUT todays money spent wisely doesn't guarantee it is that way tomorrow as you cant predict injuries etc.

                        The Met fan loves that 20/20 hindsight and then they point to Bay/Johan contracts and say "see what happens when you spend big money".

                        Step this way folks so you can have your "Wilpon we don't want to spend like the Yankees brain chip put in your head". Available at the Shake Shack, and in the Jackie Robinson Rotunda.
                        I think Wilpon's ability to outspend his mistakes ended when Madoff got caught. Now, as a Met fan, I see the only way for them to be a good team is to make wise business decisions, so that's what I want them to do. I want them to do that because I want to see them win. The only way I can see them winning currently is for them to have a successful business model. Spending more to correct your bad spending is not a good longterm business model, no matter what business you are in.

                        I am inferior to the Yankees. I haven't pitched above the High School level, and that was 30 years ago. They are world class athletes and multi millionaires.

                        I am much superior to a Yankee FAN. I support my team through good and bad and have not developed any sense of entitlement or any expectation that my team deserves to win every year. I realize that 29 other teams are always also trying to improve and win to. I have always been a Met fan. You know as well as I do that if the Yanks fail and the Mets become good the majority of those spending money and claiming to be Yankee fans will be more than happy to put there Yankee caps in the closet and head to Citi Field. I cannot wait for it to happen!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                          I think Wilpon's ability to outspend his mistakes ended when Madoff got caught. Now, as a Met fan, I see the only way for them to be a good team is to make wise business decisions, so that's what I want them to do. I want them to do that because I want to see them win. The only way I can see them winning currently is for them to have a successful business model. Spending more to correct your bad spending is not a good longterm business model, no matter what business you are in.

                          I am inferior to the Yankees. I haven't pitched above the High School level, and that was 30 years ago. They are world class athletes and multi millionaires.

                          I am much superior to a Yankee FAN. I support my team through good and bad and have not developed any sense of entitlement or any expectation that my team deserves to win every year. I realize that 29 other teams are always also trying to improve and win to. I have always been a Met fan. You know as well as I do that if the Yanks fail and the Mets become good the majority of those spending money and claiming to be Yankee fans will be more than happy to put there Yankee caps in the closet and head to Citi Field. I cannot wait for it to happen!!
                          Obviously when someone makes a decision they believe it to be the right one at that point, but things change. For example:

                          The Mets sign Bay/Santana.....basically both were major flops. Yeah I know Santana pitched a great game with a bad knee, and pitched a one hitter....uhhh I mean a no hitter. Blah blah blah. Two bust contracts. We havent heard the whining stop about either one. We hear the tears falling from Queens.

                          The Yankees sign Kei Igawa - bad contract, ARods second contract (not great), Tex, CC, etc. Do we hear whining? No. What do they do - they sign Beltran, McCann, Ellsbury. Why? Because they want to win.

                          The Mets are the example of the guy who got dumped by his girlfriend and then scorns all women for the rest of time.

                          The Yankees go out and find their next ex-girlfriend.

                          Dont fool yourself the Wilpons have the cash to make this a winner. They opt not to. Its not important to them at all.

                          I also happen to know many Yankee fans that dont fit your mold. Another badge of honor some Met fans wear is that they knock Yankee fans for not being true fans, because "the majority of those spending money and claiming to be Yankee fans will be more than happy to put there Yankee caps in the closet and head to Citi Field". Well you may be waiting a long long time.

                          Somehow you think your a better fan because your team sucks, and the way you make it better is by somehow convincing yourself that Yankee fans are fair weather fans. Well let me ask you this.....where are all the die hard Met fans? During the games they must be disguised as seats.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                            Obviously when someone makes a decision they believe it to be the right one at that point, but things change. For example:

                            The Mets sign Bay/Santana.....basically both were major flops. Yeah I know Santana pitched a great game with a bad knee, and pitched a one hitter....uhhh I mean a no hitter. Blah blah blah. Two bust contracts. We havent heard the whining stop about either one. We hear the tears falling from Queens.

                            The Yankees sign Kei Igawa - bad contract, ARods second contract (not great), Tex, CC, etc. Do we hear whining? No. What do they do - they sign Beltran, McCann, Ellsbury. Why? Because they want to win.

                            The Mets are the example of the guy who got dumped by his girlfriend and then scorns all women for the rest of time.

                            The Yankees go out and find their next ex-girlfriend.

                            Dont fool yourself the Wilpons have the cash to make this a winner. They opt not to. Its not important to them at all.

                            I also happen to know many Yankee fans that dont fit your mold. Another badge of honor some Met fans wear is that they knock Yankee fans for not being true fans, because "the majority of those spending money and claiming to be Yankee fans will be more than happy to put there Yankee caps in the closet and head to Citi Field". Well you may be waiting a long long time.

                            Somehow you think your a better fan because your team sucks, and the way you make it better is by somehow convincing yourself that Yankee fans are fair weather fans. Well let me ask you this.....where are all the die hard Met fans? During the games they must be disguised as seats.
                            DING DING DING...winner.

                            I know older Yankee fans who openly admit that they rooted for the 1969 Mets because they were such a great story. Can you imagine any Mets fans on baseball fever ever rooting for the Yankees even if Mother Theresa was pitching and the Pope was playing centerfield?

                            I have gone to Old Yankee, Renovated Yankee, New Yankee, Shea Stadium , and Citi (too young for Polo Grounds sorry) and IMHO most Yankee fans really don't give a rat's tail about the Mets. Mets fans absolutely obsess over hatred of the Yankees.

                            In 1979, the Mets loyal fans (you know the real super loyal people) came out to Shea in numbers that gave us : 788,905

                            One would have to go back to WWII's darkest days of 1943 to have NY Yankees attendance that low......and the Yankees actually won the WS that year over St Louis (one of only two times they beat the Cardinals). As Mel Allen would say, 'how about that".

                            I really don't think Yankee fans are just going to become Mets fans. Even when the NY Giants ruled baseball, the Yankees outdrew them. Even when the Brooklyn Dodgers glorious decade of the Boys of Summer reigned, the Yankees outdrew them.

                            But fans up in steerage can dream, can't they?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Didn't the 80s Mets outdraw everyone? Ever? Including the Dodgers who I think were the first to 2 million in attendance. There is something to it. I know a fair share of people that were Mets fans as kids (or so I am told) that gravitated towards the Yankees circa mid 90s.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                                Didn't the 80s Mets outdraw everyone? Ever? Including the Dodgers who I think were the first to 2 million in attendance. There is something to it. I know a fair share of people that were Mets fans as kids (or so I am told) that gravitated towards the Yankees circa mid 90s.
                                Yes I believe your right.

                                The point is no matter what team it is you will have your portion of fair weather fans. This is not unique to Yankee fans....Met fans...or any other team. Met fans try to sound like they are the most loyal fans that ever graced Earth, and all Yankee fans are ready to abandon ship with a sub .500 season.

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