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2015-16 Mets Offseason Thread

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  • There's a difference between not approving of something in someone's life and--in Chapman's case--not wanting someone charged with choking his girlfriend and firing gunshots at her on the team. I'd say there's a difference between "Well, I don't approve of Such And Such's lifestyle decisions/political views/religious ideas/etc." and cheering for a guy that allegedly choked and fired at his girlfriend.

    But let's say the moral situation's even greyer than that. If Ty Cobb played today, and you just really don't care about constant racism and controversy surrounding him, you might sign him and say he's "worth the trouble." Even so, however, I'm willing to bet that if Chapman had an ERA of 7.56 you'd say he's not "worth the trouble."

    So...at what point is a player good enough that he's suddenly "worth the trouble?"

    As for what's wrong with it--if Aroldis Chapman was a stock boy or stockbroker for that matter, and was charged with his crimes, would you emphasize his ability to stock shelves or work stocks and thus contribute to society in whatever ways those positions do...or would you expect such a person to face jail time, not prime time? Plus it's a slap in the face to the victim, to say "Yeah, that wasn't a nice thing for him to do, choke you and shoot a gun and all, but he can throw 95mph, so..."
    "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
      There's a difference between not approving of something in someone's life and--in Chapman's case--not wanting someone charged with choking his girlfriend and firing gunshots at her on the team. I'd say there's a difference between "Well, I don't approve of Such And Such's lifestyle decisions/political views/religious ideas/etc." and cheering for a guy that allegedly choked and fired at his girlfriend.

      But let's say the moral situation's even greyer than that. If Ty Cobb played today, and you just really don't care about constant racism and controversy surrounding him, you might sign him and say he's "worth the trouble." Even so, however, I'm willing to bet that if Chapman had an ERA of 7.56 you'd say he's not "worth the trouble."

      So...at what point is a player good enough that he's suddenly "worth the trouble?"

      As for what's wrong with it--if Aroldis Chapman was a stock boy or stockbroker for that matter, and was charged with his crimes, would you emphasize his ability to stock shelves or work stocks and thus contribute to society in whatever ways those positions do...or would you expect such a person to face jail time, not prime time? Plus it's a slap in the face to the victim, to say "Yeah, that wasn't a nice thing for him to do, choke you and shoot a gun and all, but he can throw 95mph, so..."
      MLB's not a democracy. Talent counts. It's possible to get blackballed like Barry Bonds or Elijah Dukes but beyond a certain point I guess teams feel it's not their place to sit on a high horse and make value judgements about their employees.

      That kind of thinking results in things like the Leigh Castergine lawsuit.


      "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
        There's a difference between not approving of something in someone's life and--in Chapman's case--not wanting someone charged with choking his girlfriend and firing gunshots at her on the team. I'd say there's a difference between "Well, I don't approve of Such And Such's lifestyle decisions/political views/religious ideas/etc." and cheering for a guy that allegedly choked and fired at his girlfriend.

        But let's say the moral situation's even greyer than that. If Ty Cobb played today, and you just really don't care about constant racism and controversy surrounding him, you might sign him and say he's "worth the trouble." Even so, however, I'm willing to bet that if Chapman had an ERA of 7.56 you'd say he's not "worth the trouble."

        So...at what point is a player good enough that he's suddenly "worth the trouble?"

        As for what's wrong with it--if Aroldis Chapman was a stock boy or stockbroker for that matter, and was charged with his crimes, would you emphasize his ability to stock shelves or work stocks and thus contribute to society in whatever ways those positions do...or would you expect such a person to face jail time, not prime time? Plus it's a slap in the face to the victim, to say "Yeah, that wasn't a nice thing for him to do, choke you and shoot a gun and all, but he can throw 95mph, so..."
        Dude did you read what you typed? "firing gunshots at his girlfriend"?????? Never happened. Apparently you read it because you typed it again. He fired the gun in his garage at nobody.

        IF he fired at his girlfriend in the garage and missed he needs a new gun, or his girlfriend is the Flash, and he shouldn't be counted on to control his fastball.

        The loveable Kirby Puckett- strangled his wife with a phone cord and sexually assaulted someone is talked about like a God. We just have no clue how everyone of these players are just like we have no clue about people we work with or in your case - go to school with. We have no clue.

        I am not saying his behavior is acceptable or should be forgotten about.

        Comment


        • Alright, my mistake there then.

          Yeah, and I'm not wild about Kirby Puckett, either. It's not like I'm asking every player to be a saint or anything, "don't cheat and don't commit a crime/abuse" is a PRETTY EASY bar to get over for most players...and people in general, for that matter. And yeah, more things happen than we'll ever know, but there's no reason to suspect everyone just because of the actions of a few.
          "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
            Alright, my mistake there then.

            Yeah, and I'm not wild about Kirby Puckett, either. It's not like I'm asking every player to be a saint or anything, "don't cheat and don't commit a crime/abuse" is a PRETTY EASY bar to get over for most players...and people in general, for that matter. And yeah, more things happen than we'll ever know, but there's no reason to suspect everyone just because of the actions of a few.
            I hear ya. I wasn't advocating that what Chapman did is something to overlook.

            As far as the "cheating" goes I assume your talking about steroids or HGH. I also feel differently than most on that issue also, but that is for another day.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
              Alright, my mistake there then.

              Yeah, and I'm not wild about Kirby Puckett, either. It's not like I'm asking every player to be a saint or anything, "don't cheat and don't commit a crime/abuse" is a PRETTY EASY bar to get over for most players...and people in general, for that matter. And yeah, more things happen than we'll ever know, but there's no reason to suspect everyone just because of the actions of a few.
              So a guy who allegedly pumps a few rounds into a garbage can is scum.

              Then what do you call a guy laughing in glee because he's just walked away with $300M+ stolen from charities and widows?


              It's not a question of suspecting everyone. It's just that the moralizing about Chapman and Reyes is kind of curious and selective.


              "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

              Comment


              • 1. I said it was my mistake on the gunshots thing, that they were in his garage and not near his girlfriend. That said, he DID still choke her, so...yeah...I feel comfortable calling a guy who chokes a woman scum.

                2. I call him the scumbag who owns the team.

                3. I don't think it's selective to moralize guys who in some fashion beat/choke/assault women. Goes the same for any player, whether they're on another team (Ray Rice) or one of my own (Ray McDonald, when he was on my 49ers.)

                4. Thankfully, today's the day--in 15 hours this thread'll be closer to being done, and we can pick up right where we left off--Matt Harvey trying to prove something in a game against the Royals.
                "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Shea Knight View Post
                  1. I said it was my mistake on the gunshots thing, that they were in his garage and not near his girlfriend. That said, he DID still choke her, so...yeah...I feel comfortable calling a guy who chokes a woman scum.

                  2. I call him the scumbag who owns the team.

                  3. I don't think it's selective to moralize guys who in some fashion beat/choke/assault women. Goes the same for any player, whether they're on another team (Ray Rice) or one of my own (Ray McDonald, when he was on my 49ers.)

                  4. Thankfully, today's the day--in 15 hours this thread'll be closer to being done, and we can pick up right where we left off--Matt Harvey trying to prove something in a game against the Royals.
                  There are varieties of scum we have to choose from.

                  What Chapman and Reyes did is wrong and no doubt they are scum worthy for doing what they did. What we don't know was this just a heat of the moment mistake/bad judgment or are the chronic abusers. We don't know.

                  Personally in my first marriage I was presented with these heat of the moment situations. I always walked away. Thank God. With that said in the heat of the moment it isn't always easy. I am not sure what happened in either case, but walking away is the always the better solution.


                  On the other hand Fred is chronic scum. I am sure the people that he swindled money or land from would have rather been slapped around a little bit and kept their money.

                  Comment


                  • Glad this thread is over. Amazing how we can find so much negativity on a thread meant to discuss a team that went to the world series.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                      He has, but they need to get that kid out of left field before he gets killed.
                      http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/0...prain-mri.html

                      Kyle Schwarber Diagnosed With Sprained Ankle; To Undergo MRI

                      By Jeff Todd | April 7, 2016 at 11:09pm CDT

                      Cubs catcher/outfielder Kyle Schwarber left today’s game after a scary collision with Dexter Fowler. Preliminary x-rays were negative, with the initial diagnosis suggesting that he has escaped with only a left ankle sprain, MLB.com’s Carrie Muskat was among those to report on Twitter. He’ll have an MRI tomorrow for a closer look...


                      "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                        He has, but they need to get that kid out of left field before he gets killed.
                        Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                        http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/0...prain-mri.html

                        Kyle Schwarber Diagnosed With Sprained Ankle; To Undergo MRI

                        By Jeff Todd | April 7, 2016 at 11:09pm CDT

                        Cubs catcher/outfielder Kyle Schwarber left today’s game after a scary collision with Dexter Fowler. Preliminary x-rays were negative, with the initial diagnosis suggesting that he has escaped with only a left ankle sprain, MLB.com’s Carrie Muskat was among those to report on Twitter. He’ll have an MRI tomorrow for a closer look...
                        Or kills somebody else...
                        They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                          So a guy who allegedly pumps a few rounds into a garbage can is scum.

                          Then what do you call a guy laughing in glee because he's just walked away with $300M+ stolen from charities and widows?


                          It's not a question of suspecting everyone. It's just that the moralizing about Chapman and Reyes is kind of curious and selective.
                          God, that picture gives me the willies every time I look at it. I've heard the phrase "cackling with satanic glee", but I've never seen it so perfectly embodied. It's downright evil.
                          They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

                          Comment

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