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2016-17 Mets Off-Season Thread

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  • Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    On the whole rebuild vs. perennial contender question, and Alderson.

    I've long been an Alderson critic, but I've moderated my view for one main reason - there are only five instances of "that team" in Mets history, two World Series winners and three additional pennants. The Mets had a massive 15-year drought going into 2015 and it ended. So he has to be given credit for a rebuild. The Mets are 55 - and there are exactly five teams.

    That said, as Pauly and others have pointed out here numerous times, the Mets have virtually never been a perennial contender type team coupled with post-season success. You want to point to the Wright-Delgado-Beltran-Reyes run? Too bad! Didn't get there. Neither did any other era. We've never been the Yankees or the Red Sox or the Giants or the Cardinals. When we get there, it's a lightning strike, generally speaking. Sure, 1986 era could have been that team - but didn't pan out.

    This year? Yeah, could have made improvements to the lineup. Didn't.

    I'm hoping the most surprising player is our power-hitting RF-1B who no one is counting on.
    The problem after 1986 and since has been Fred. He hijacked the team from Doubleday a few weeks after Orosco's glove hit the ground, and started interfering immediately. The Mitchell trade was the first in a series that destroyed that team. Then, when he forced Doubleday completely out, the penny pinching era began in earnest.

    The Mets were 2 for 25 before Fred and 0 for 30 after Fred.

    The Cubs had a good run in 2015 and follow up by signing premier players. Fred tries to get away with replacing Cespedes with De Aza.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
      You used to say they didn't have to win, they just had to try. Now that the Mets are winning they're not in the category of perennial contenders. Next,???

      I know the good times when I see them-- and this is it.
      I said they had to try and not win? Never said it.

      I said the organization doesn't try to win and they should, but I want and expect the team to win. What the hell does that even mean You used to say they didn't have to win, they just had to try Like I just expected the players to try hard and that was good enough? I realize nobody is winning every year but the effort should be there.

      When I spoke of trying to win it was all about the organization. If you think this organization has really gone out to win in this window of opportunity-- well then there is nothing to say to that besides......they haven't.


      I have always said I want the Mets to be the type of team that competes every season, and they for the most part they should be. Considering the market and revenue they produce (and can produce more)

      You have been brow beaten to the point that you think this has been a really good run by this team. Wow.

      Do you have anything that I didn't say and would like to credit me for?
      Last edited by Paulypal; 03-19-2017, 12:09 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
        I said they had to try and not win? Never said it.

        I said the organization doesn't try to win and they should, but I want and expect the team to win. What the hell does that even mean You used to say they didn't have to win, they just had to try Like I just expected the players to try hard and that was good enough? I realize nobody is winning every year but the effort should be there.

        When I spoke of trying to win it was all about the organization. If you think this organization has really gone out to win in this window of opportunity-- well then there is nothing to say to that besides......they haven't.


        I have always said I want the Mets to be the type of team that competes every season, and they for the most part they should be. Considering the market and revenue they produce (and can produce more)

        You have been brow beaten to the point that you think this has been a really good run by this team. Wow.

        Do you have anything that I didn't say and would like to credit me for?
        You did indeed write it- they don't have to win they have to try.
        These are the good days. No brow beating necessary.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
          You did indeed write it- they don't have to win they have to try.
          These are the good days. No brow beating necessary.
          LOL. Yeah I must have said it then if you say so.

          Maybe you were confused on who you think I meant when I said "tried". It was the organization. I meant the organization put an honest effort into winning. IF they do that - then we cant complain if they don't.

          They haven't don't that in a long long time.

          Yeah lets just try then they all should get trophy's and go to Friendly's for a chocolate Sunday.

          Brow beaten into submission that Mets are on a historic run...for them.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
            You did indeed write it- they don't have to win they have to try.
            These are the good days. No brow beating necessary.
            Some people will never be happy. I think back to the guy who sat in front of me in Sect 17 on Saturdays from 83-92. He spent most of his time complaining about Doug Sisk, how Darryl couldn't hit for average and how McReynolds seemed to just be going through the motions. He had valid points however he missed enjoying probably the best period of Met baseball because he became preoccupied with the negative. He did buy a ticket so he had a right to his opinion. This site is even better. You can dislike things and not have to pay to express yourself to others who are more interested in the 90 wins than the 70 loses.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
              LOL. Yeah I must have said it then if you say so.

              Maybe you were confused on who you think I meant when I said "tried". It was the organization. I meant the organization put an honest effort into winning. IF they do that - then we cant complain if they don't.

              They haven't don't that in a long long time.

              Yeah lets just try then they all should get trophy's and go to Friendly's for a chocolate Sunday.

              Brow beaten into submission that Mets are on a historic run...for them.


              Not necessarily historic, but that sounds great.

              I think your perennial contenders like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Giants, Yanks and Red Sox are the one's that get a trophy and go to Friendly's. Just for being perennial contenders.

              Comment


              • Your perennial contenders as you state, are always willing to spend money and invest in their organizations. I have yet to see the Mets do that. <==please don't bring up Cespedes. Bring up the others as in Murphy, or some of the others who they let walk. I haven't seen them make any offers of significance to the pitching staff..

                I can handle the higher ticket prices, outrageously priced "Sushi" and other high priced luxuries if the Mets could show me they are interested in building a good, sustaining organization rather than "We're Only in it for the Money". <==Apologies to Mr. Zappa and the MOI
                North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

                Comment


                • Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post
                  Your perennial contenders as you state, are always willing to spend money and invest in their organizations. I have yet to see the Mets do that. <==please don't bring up Cespedes. Bring up the others as in Murphy, or some of the others who they let walk. I haven't seen them make any offers of significance to the pitching staff..

                  I can handle the higher ticket prices, outrageously priced "Sushi" and other high priced luxuries if the Mets could show me they are interested in building a good, sustaining organization rather than "We're Only in it for the Money". <==Apologies to Mr. Zappa and the MOI
                  No one should spend their disposable income if they don't want to.

                  Do perennial contenders get trophies or kudos that I'm unaware of? Other than more forced ESPN Sunday night games.

                  Comment


                  • Lotta folks here are gonna want to get in on this one!

                    Screen Shot 2017-03-20 at 10.09.36 AM.png

                    Charity beneficiary? Sterling Equities.
                    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
                      [/B]Not necessarily historic, but that sounds great.

                      I think your perennial contenders like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Giants, Yanks and Red Sox are the one's that get a trophy and go to Friendly's. Just for being perennial contenders.
                      No you see - that is what I mean by trying. The perennial contenders are trying to win every if not most every year. Of course they will step back to go forward at times, but for the most part they are in the thick of it. Now with Theo and plenty of funding we probably could put the Cubs in there.

                      The Mets have not tried - in fact I am still not sure how hard the organization has tried. Although they should contend this year for a playoff spot at least I don't see the effort to put quality across the diamond.

                      Lets put it this way - this was not a well devised plan by the Mets. If you want to see planning - look at the Red Sox, the Cubs, and the Cardinals. The Cubs cashed in on a lot of sucking with great players at different positions through the system, great trades for young talent, and spent money to win to strike while the window is open. Red Sox are doing the same thing.

                      The Mets are semi cashing in on sucking. One foot in - one foot out. This is the Wilpon way.

                      I am not being overly critical of the organization - I see this as what has happened.

                      With all that said - again - I believe that they will compete this year for at least a playoff spot. I just believe that they could be a lot more with a real effort.

                      Comment


                      • Clearly we disagree.

                        The team appears to be in the middle of a successful stretch to me.
                        To you the team has not tried. Now when they were 59-103 I'd buy the not trying. Not today.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by LI METS FAN View Post
                          Clearly we disagree.

                          The team appears to be in the middle of a successful stretch to me.
                          To you the team has not tried. Now when they were 59-103 I'd buy the not trying. Not today.
                          Yes we disagree. I didn't say they were void of trying -- I said "not hard enough".

                          I hope you are right about the successful run. I hope there are multiple years left and that they make the moves to sustain it further.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by brooklynboy View Post
                            Your perennial contenders as you state, are always willing to spend money and invest in their organizations. I have yet to see the Mets do that. <==please don't bring up Cespedes. Bring up the others as in Murphy, or some of the others who they let walk. I haven't seen them make any offers of significance to the pitching staff..

                            I can handle the higher ticket prices, outrageously priced "Sushi" and other high priced luxuries if the Mets could show me they are interested in building a good, sustaining organization rather than "We're Only in it for the Money". <==Apologies to Mr. Zappa and the MOI
                            Why shouldn't you bring up Cespedes when talking about trying to win? How many people would have said they are not trying to win if they did not sign him? We will see which pitchers they sign. Do you think they should sign them all now to big contracts to show people on the fence about buying expensive sushi at the ballpark that they care?

                            Once we can accept that they do have a budget it will be easier to see why some people are signed and why others are not. Once we can accept that Wilpon's not Steinbrenner and the Mets are not the Yanks maybe we can spend more time appreciating the talent this team DOES have and look forward to what we all believe could be a good season.

                            One final word on Murphy. He was the least sought after 2nd baseman in the 2015 free agent market and was the Nats 3rd choice. He didn't even have the faith in himself to accept a short term deal, have a great year and try free agency again. Many teams in baseball got Murphy wrong, not just the Mets.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                              Why shouldn't you bring up Cespedes when talking about trying to win? How many people would have said they are not trying to win if they did not sign him? We will see which pitchers they sign. Do you think they should sign them all now to big contracts to show people on the fence about buying expensive sushi at the ballpark that they care?

                              Once we can accept that they do have a budget it will be easier to see why some people are signed and why others are not. Once we can accept that Wilpon's not Steinbrenner and the Mets are not the Yanks maybe we can spend more time appreciating the talent this team DOES have and look forward to what we all believe could be a good season.

                              One final word on Murphy. He was the least sought after 2nd baseman in the 2015 free agent market and was the Nats 3rd choice. He didn't even have the faith in himself to accept a short term deal, have a great year and try free agency again. Many teams in baseball got Murphy wrong, not just the Mets.
                              I fully agree on Murphy - he wasn't wanted. My thing about Murphy is that if he believed in himself he would have taken the QO an cashed in huge this past off season. Plain and simple. He did turn his career around in a big way and he will not cash in on it. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed -- I think we all know that is a fact.

                              Also agree the Mets are not the Yankees - they are not the Giants, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, the Cubs, or the Red Sox either.

                              I have to be honest being that you said we have to appreciate the talent this team does have. - Besides Noah, deGrom, Cespedes -- what player(s) are you telling yourself "oh I have to see this guy"?

                              That is my whole point - I just am not sure how talented they are. Talented enough to compete for a WC and hopefully win the division if things break right. Hopefully.

                              I just think that they could/should carry more star power than they do. They rely on sub par/injured players way too often. That may be just me.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
                                Why shouldn't you bring up Cespedes when talking about trying to win? How many people would have said they are not trying to win if they did not sign him? We will see which pitchers they sign. Do you think they should sign them all now to big contracts to show people on the fence about buying expensive sushi at the ballpark that they care?

                                Once we can accept that they do have a budget it will be easier to see why some people are signed and why others are not. Once we can accept that Wilpon's not Steinbrenner and the Mets are not the Yanks maybe we can spend more time appreciating the talent this team DOES have and look forward to what we all believe could be a good season.

                                One final word on Murphy. He was the least sought after 2nd baseman in the 2015 free agent market and was the Nats 3rd choice. He didn't even have the faith in himself to accept a short term deal, have a great year and try free agency again. Many teams in baseball got Murphy wrong, not just the Mets.
                                How many teams really needed 2nd basemen last off-season? The position is probably the deepest it's ever been across baseball. There weren't a lot of spots open, especially on contenders, which was important to Murphy.

                                Least sought after? He didn't do his market a lot of favors by waiting around until the Mets got Walker, to sign a contract. He was hoping the Maverick would make him a credible offer. Too bad the legend in his own mind has no eye for talent.

                                You're probably right about one thing: Murph's pissed he's only guaranteed $50 million in lifetime earnings so far. You could see the pillar of smoke billowing from his ears in satellite photos of Jacksonville this winter.

                                Originally posted by Paulypal View Post
                                I fully agree on Murphy - he wasn't wanted. My thing about Murphy is that if he believed in himself he would have taken the QO an cashed in huge this past off season. Plain and simple. He did turn his career around in a big way and he will not cash in on it. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed -- I think we all know that is a fact.

                                Also agree the Mets are not the Yankees - they are not the Giants, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, the Cubs, or the Red Sox either.

                                I have to be honest being that you said we have to appreciate the talent this team does have. - Besides Noah, deGrom, Cespedes -- what player(s) are you telling yourself "oh I have to see this guy"?

                                That is my whole point - I just am not sure how talented they are. Talented enough to compete for a WC and hopefully win the division if things break right. Hopefully.

                                I just think that they could/should carry more star power than they do. They rely on sub par/injured players way too often. That may be just me.
                                It's not just you.

                                Fred himself said the goal was "meaningful games in September".


                                "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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